Well on the two scenes you're comparing,Saturn, the rooftop v the flat, I think I found the scene in the flat in HLV the most emotionally devastating.
It's hard to explain completely without me writing essay, which, honestly, I'm too full of cold and medicine to do right now!
But the best way I can put it is - both times Sherlock was making an enormous sacrifice, but the first time you sort of knew - or hoped you did - that both he and John would be ok in the end.
This time around, one look at him tells you he's in pain and trying desperately to hold it together for long enough to see John and Mary will be OK.
Yet the whole scene underlines the fact that he'll never come first with anyone; Mary is too focused on trying to keep John to show any remorse or concern for Sherlock.
And John yells at him to shut up, insults him and is completely oblivious to the fact that his life is in danger - because he's too focused on his own hurt and anger.
If Sherlock hadn't called that ambulance for himself, he'd likely have really died this time around.
Ultimately there was no one there for him, and I found this incredibly sad

And this is from someone who, for the first two seasons very much saw John as being the one I had most sympathy for - season 3 has really made me change the way I look at Sherlock himself.

Last edited by Tinks (February 7, 2014 12:13 pm)

clareiow wrote:

Tinks wrote:

Well on the two scenes you're comparing,Saturn, the rooftop v the flat, I think I found the scene in the flat in HLV the most emotionally devastating.
It's hard to explain completely without me writing essay, which, honestly, I'm too full of cold and medicine to do right now!
But the best way I can put it is - both times Sherlock was making an enormous sacrifice, but the first time you sort of knew - or hoped you did - that both he and John would be ok in the end.
This time around, one look at him tells you he's in pain and trying desperately to hold it together for long enough to see John and Mary will be OK.
Yet the whole scene underlines the fact that he'll never come first with anyone; Mary is too focused on trying to keep John to show any remorse or concern for Sherlock.
And John yells at him to shut up, insults him and is completely oblivious to the fact that his life is in danger - because he's too focused on his own hurt and anger.
If Sherlock hadn't called that ambulance for himself, he'd likely have really died this time around.
Ultimately there was no one there for him, and I found this incredibly sad

And this is from someone who, for the first two seasons very much saw John as being the one I had most sympathy for - season 3 has really made me change the way I look at Sherlock himself.

 
Very well put. I truly felt for Sherlock, not that I didn't beforehand, but he was never in more trouble and at the same time, more alone in HLV. My heart actually ached during the Baker St showdown, I could see him slipping from the moment he got through the door to the moment the paramedics arrived. I just wanted to take care of him. And I was angry at john for not noticing

Yes; I agree. I find it very difficult to accept the John we see in much of S3; about the only rationalisation I have been able to come up with is that Sherlock's long absence, combined with the probably not very uplifting company of someone who sees the world through the mono focus of 'what I want', has undermined John's  'moral compass'.

The Baker St confrontation was pretty horrible; the ironic refutation of the part in Sherlock's Best Man speech where he tells people that John is the one who saves lives. Only he doesn't; he not only doesn't save Sherlock's life, he threatens him with more violence as well. All in all not what one hopes for from the gallant Dr Watson of canon
 

Willow wrote:

clareiow wrote:

Tinks wrote:

Well on the two scenes you're comparing,Saturn, the rooftop v the flat, I think I found the scene in the flat in HLV the most emotionally devastating.
It's hard to explain completely without me writing essay, which, honestly, I'm too full of cold and medicine to do right now!
But the best way I can put it is - both times Sherlock was making an enormous sacrifice, but the first time you sort of knew - or hoped you did - that both he and John would be ok in the end.
This time around, one look at him tells you he's in pain and trying desperately to hold it together for long enough to see John and Mary will be OK.
Yet the whole scene underlines the fact that he'll never come first with anyone; Mary is too focused on trying to keep John to show any remorse or concern for Sherlock.
And John yells at him to shut up, insults him and is completely oblivious to the fact that his life is in danger - because he's too focused on his own hurt and anger.
If Sherlock hadn't called that ambulance for himself, he'd likely have really died this time around.
Ultimately there was no one there for him, and I found this incredibly sad

And this is from someone who, for the first two seasons very much saw John as being the one I had most sympathy for - season 3 has really made me change the way I look at Sherlock himself.

 
Very well put. I truly felt for Sherlock, not that I didn't beforehand, but he was never in more trouble and at the same time, more alone in HLV. My heart actually ached during the Baker St showdown, I could see him slipping from the moment he got through the door to the moment the paramedics arrived. I just wanted to take care of him. And I was angry at john for not noticing

Yes; I agree. I find it very difficult to accept the John we see in much of S3; about the only rationalisation I have been able to come up with is that Sherlock's long absence, combined with the probably not very uplifting company of someone who sees the world through the mono focus of 'what I want', has undermined John's 'moral compass'.

The Baker St confrontation was pretty horrible; the ironic refutation of the part in Sherlock's Best Man speech where he tells people that John is the one who saves lives. Only he doesn't; he not only doesn't save Sherlock's life, he threatens him with more violence as well. All in all not what one hopes for from the gallant Dr Watson of canon
 

And why does John turn on Sherlock, anyway? Mary shot Sherlock. Why is John willing to sacrifice Sherlock to save an assassin?

I wanted to see more anguish from John about Sherlock nearly dying, another "Oh my God, don't die on me" (even though we already had one! this one could involve John helping save Sherlock's life.) As much as I love the idea that Sherlock's love for John brought him back, look who is the only person we DON'T see in Sherlock's near-death mind-palace: John

(I'm sure the Sherlolly shippers are having a field day with this one.)

Despite squeeing over Sherlock's declaration of love for John in TSoT, I had my doubts about the "John makes me a better person claim." Because that implies John is "better" in certain ways to begin with - in terms of having empathy, caring about people, knowing how to treat people - having good human qualities that Sherlock doesn't have.

And I'm not sure I see it with this John. 

There are Sherlock Holmes adaptations that make Watson stupid and / or very subservient and mindless in hero-worship. I'm not necessarily advocating for that, but there need to be differences between Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson - both in abilities and in their human qualities.


 

Tinks wrote:

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:

I didn't catch it first, but someone else pointed it out to me: did Sherlock pretty much actually die of the gunshot? I thought it was a potentially fatal wound but he survived thanks to the medical team...

 
Yes he did die - in the operating theatre he flatlines and the medical team step away from his body.

I think this is why there are such mixed feelings about John in this season; in HLV he's sending mixed messages squared. I'm not sure how Moftiss are going to put him back together again, because he does seem to have parted company with at least some of the essential decency which is so central to Dr John Watson; he may not be the sharpest tool in the box but he knows right from wrong. That is why the Baker St scene is so disturbing.

So, looking for ways for John to become John again, about the only explanation I can come up with for the ending is that the Dr John Watson of Canon would not abandon any pregnant woman to her enemies; irrespective of whether the baby is his or not, he cannot let her down, even if she did kill (temporarily) the man who is his closest friend. I think he believes CAM's statement that she has multiple people who would like to see her dead; she is, in a rather perverse way, the equivalent of Sholto who also has people who want him dead...




 

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:

Willow wrote:

clareiow wrote:

 
Very well put. I truly felt for Sherlock, not that I didn't beforehand, but he was never in more trouble and at the same time, more alone in HLV. My heart actually ached during the Baker St showdown, I could see him slipping from the moment he got through the door to the moment the paramedics arrived. I just wanted to take care of him. And I was angry at john for not noticing

Yes; I agree. I find it very difficult to accept the John we see in much of S3; about the only rationalisation I have been able to come up with is that Sherlock's long absence, combined with the probably not very uplifting company of someone who sees the world through the mono focus of 'what I want', has undermined John's 'moral compass'.

The Baker St confrontation was pretty horrible; the ironic refutation of the part in Sherlock's Best Man speech where he tells people that John is the one who saves lives. Only he doesn't; he not only doesn't save Sherlock's life, he threatens him with more violence as well. All in all not what one hopes for from the gallant Dr Watson of canon
 

And why does John turn on Sherlock, anyway? Mary shot Sherlock. Why is John willing to sacrifice Sherlock to save an assassin?

I wanted to see more anguish from John about Sherlock nearly dying, another "Oh my God, don't die on me" (even though we already had one! this one could involve John helping save Sherlock's life.) As much as I love the idea that Sherlock's love for John brought him back, look who is the only person we DON'T see in Sherlock's near-death mind-palace: John

(I'm sure the Sherlolly shippers are having a field day with this one.)

Despite squeeing over Sherlock's declaration of love for John in TSoT, I had my doubts about the "John makes me a better person claim." Because that implies John is "better" in certain ways to begin with - in terms of having empathy, caring about people, knowing how to treat people - having good human qualities that Sherlock doesn't have.

And I'm not sure I see it with this John. 

There are Sherlock Holmes adaptations that make Watson stupid and / or very subservient and mindless in hero-worship. I'm not necessarily advocating for that, but there need to be differences between Sherlock Holmes and Dr. Watson - both in abilities and in their human qualities.


 

I think what bothers me most about this permutation of John... is his "it's all about me" attitude. And he blames Sherlock, Mary, for his own choices; and then resorts to  self-rightous rage, violence , or withdrawal INSTEAD of dealing with the issues. We're seeing this John from Sherlock's POV-- and if this is the sort of behavior Sherlock saw in John in the first two seasons, it would explain a lot of Sherlock's behavior.