Willow wrote:

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:

I was struck (and disappointed) by the absence of any big, "Oh my God, Sherlock, don't die on me" kind of reaction from John, either when Sherlock was shot or when he first had his relapse. We're saying it was Sherlock's love for John that brought him back...but John was only person Sherlock DIDN'T see in his near-death mind-palace. 

It seems like everyone is more concerned about protecting Mary (who is in this predicament in the first place because she's a professional assassin - though granted, we don't know if she was somehow forced by the CIA, like Nikita was) than they are about Sherlock - even John, and that's very un-Watson of him.

 

Actually it's worse than that; not only did John fail to make any acknowledgement of Sherlock bleeding out, he then threatened him with physical violence. And he can't get off the hook by claiming that he just didn't realise how badly ill Sherlock was; John had been a trauma surgeon, and they of all people know the signs of someone bleeding out.

Sherlock was hanging on a very slim thread and yet John ignored him in favour of complaining that he was the victim. Definitely not one of John's finer moments...
 

I got "spoiled" in the sense that I read something before seeing HLV that gave away Mary's background. And I was like, "well, there's still hope for Johnlock because this will be this series' way of getting rid of Mary." But no such luck. 

In talking about John's reaction (or lack thereof) to Sherlock's almost dying, I was referring not only to the relapse scene in Baker Street, but also to John after Sherlock was first shot...(he was clearly concerned, but not anguished enough), but yeah, it applies to the Baker Street scene, too.

And worse yet, you would think John, having experienced Sherlock being (he thought) gone, and then gotten his wish/miracle, would take better care of his miracle.

And if you've read Doyle's canon: the original Watson threatens violence all right...against those who have harmed Sherlock Holmes! (And Holmes returns the favor in another story.) And he drops everything to rush to Holmes' side when he receives a report that Holmes has been seriously ill or injured.

It doesn't work for me to explain John's behavior by saying he's still mad at Sherlock for faking his death, because we saw so little sign of that from the end of TEH on through TSoT. We went from mostly affection between the boys then to...this.

I've said before now I've found John a little off compared to what I'm used to from Watson...in that he has dysfunctions too similar to Holmes' own...kind of glad other people are starting to see it.

Last edited by SherlocklivesinOH (February 9, 2014 2:15 am)

My take.

John did not freak out when Sherlock was first shot because of his background as a doctor and a soldier.  Every fiber of his being is trained to remain calm and see that the injured get the proper care. Come on, he's tended to wrorse inguries than Sherlocks while bullets flew past his head.
I imagine John had himself a nice little break down in private once he was alone and Sherlock was in surgery.

Last edited by tonnaree (February 9, 2014 3:28 am)

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:

Willow wrote:

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:

I was struck (and disappointed) by the absence of any big, "Oh my God, Sherlock, don't die on me" kind of reaction from John, either when Sherlock was shot or when he first had his relapse. We're saying it was Sherlock's love for John that brought him back...but John was only person Sherlock DIDN'T see in his near-death mind-palace. 

It seems like everyone is more concerned about protecting Mary (who is in this predicament in the first place because she's a professional assassin - though granted, we don't know if she was somehow forced by the CIA, like Nikita was) than they are about Sherlock - even John, and that's very un-Watson of him.

 

Actually it's worse than that; not only did John fail to make any acknowledgement of Sherlock bleeding out, he then threatened him with physical violence. And he can't get off the hook by claiming that he just didn't realise how badly ill Sherlock was; John had been a trauma surgeon, and they of all people know the signs of someone bleeding out.

Sherlock was hanging on a very slim thread and yet John ignored him in favour of complaining that he was the victim. Definitely not one of John's finer moments...
 

I got "spoiled" in the sense that I read something before seeing HLV that gave away Mary's background. And I was like, "well, there's still hope for Johnlock because this will be this series' way of getting rid of Mary." But no such luck. 

In talking about John's reaction (or lack thereof) to Sherlock's almost dying, I was referring not only to the relapse scene in Baker Street, but also to John after Sherlock was first shot...(he was clearly concerned, but not anguished enough), but yeah, it applies to the Baker Street scene, too.

And worse yet, you would think John, having experienced Sherlock being (he thought) gone, and then gotten his wish/miracle, would take better care of his miracle.

And if you've read Doyle's canon: the original Watson threatens violence all right...against those who have harmed Sherlock Holmes! (And Holmes returns the favor in another story.) And he drops everything to rush to Holmes' side when he receives a report that Holmes has been seriously ill or injured.

It doesn't work for me to explain John's behavior by saying he's still mad at Sherlock for faking his death, because we saw so little sign of that from the end of TEH on through TSoT. We went from mostly affection between the boys then to...this.

I've said before now I've found John a little off compared to what I'm used to from Watson...in that he has dysfunctions too similar to Holmes' own...kind of glad other people are starting to see it.

Thank you, thank you, thank you! Said much better than I could manage. 

Tinks wrote:

besleybean wrote:

Tho he is one of Sherlock's team of carers!

 
Love this line - so true

Sherlock ruined a lot of John's relationships before he went away, and even though he conned John into thinking they were about to be blown up in order to bring about their reconciliation proper (like when he led him on a run through the London Streets in SiP for no reason other than to get him to forget his limp), I believe his apology came from the heart.
I've said this before, but I truly don't think that Sherlock sees himself as being of great importance to anyone on an emotional level - John was the only friend he'd ever had but I truly think he didn't expect John to grieve for him to the extent that he did.
So I think his guilt and surprise when he returns and finds out how badly John was affected, led to him backing off a bit when it came to analysing Mary - he'd be reluctant to be the cause of any hurt for John again?
Just a thought.

It's almost as if Sherlock is doing penance: anything to keep John happy and safe. And that includes Mary.

Willow wrote:

Tinks wrote:

besleybean wrote:

Tho he is one of Sherlock's team of carers!

 
Love this line - so true

Sherlock ruined a lot of John's relationships before he went away, and even though he conned John into thinking they were about to be blown up in order to bring about their reconciliation proper (like when he led him on a run through the London Streets in SiP for no reason other than to get him to forget his limp), I believe his apology came from the heart.
I've said this before, but I truly don't think that Sherlock sees himself as being of great importance to anyone on an emotional level - John was the only friend he'd ever had but I truly think he didn't expect John to grieve for him to the extent that he did.
So I think his guilt and surprise when he returns and finds out how badly John was affected, led to him backing off a bit when it came to analysing Mary - he'd be reluctant to be the cause of any hurt for John again?
Just a thought.

 
I think you are absolutely right; Sherlock was off guard because he truly hadn't expected John to have been so damaged. He was probably also rather hurt that John showed no interest in what Sherlock had actually been doing for the last two years; the way John carries on you would think Sherlock had been on an extended holiday and had failed to send him any postcards.

Sherlock did have his "What life? I've been away" line. So, maybe he didn't truly understand the emotions involved for John, that line implies a knowledge / belief / assumption that his and John's relationship was John's entire life. In fact, it implies a sense of entitlement on his part, in this regard. 

I was actually in a way surprised that Sherlock (once having met Mary) never got a line like, "Wait - you're still marrying her? Why? I'm back." That's to his credit, in a way.


 

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:

Willow wrote:

Tinks wrote:

 
Love this line - so true

Sherlock ruined a lot of John's relationships before he went away, and even though he conned John into thinking they were about to be blown up in order to bring about their reconciliation proper (like when he led him on a run through the London Streets in SiP for no reason other than to get him to forget his limp), I believe his apology came from the heart.
I've said this before, but I truly don't think that Sherlock sees himself as being of great importance to anyone on an emotional level - John was the only friend he'd ever had but I truly think he didn't expect John to grieve for him to the extent that he did.
So I think his guilt and surprise when he returns and finds out how badly John was affected, led to him backing off a bit when it came to analysing Mary - he'd be reluctant to be the cause of any hurt for John again?
Just a thought.

 
I think you are absolutely right; Sherlock was off guard because he truly hadn't expected John to have been so damaged. He was probably also rather hurt that John showed no interest in what Sherlock had actually been doing for the last two years; the way John carries on you would think Sherlock had been on an extended holiday and had failed to send him any postcards.

Sherlock did have his "What life? I've been away" line. So, maybe he didn't truly understand the emotions involved for John, that line implies a knowledge / belief / assumption that his and John's relationship was John's entire life. In fact, it implies a sense of entitlement on his part, in this regard. 

I was actually in a way surprised that Sherlock (once having met Mary) never got a line like, "Wait - you're still marrying her? Why? I'm back." That's to his credit, in a way.


 

It makes sense though, when you consider that he never thought he'd be considered anyone's, least of all John's best friend. If you don't think that anyone values for anything but what they want from you-- and in John's case (to Sherlock) excitement, adventure, a life-- then you might have difficulty understanding why they care so much...

I can relate to this; I'm an only child, lost both parents by the age of 18, was on my own since age 17-- and came from a background of having to move every other year; so, I became ridiculously self -suffiecient--emotionally speaking. So, when I finally did make friends and started living with them; I was compleley taken by suprise when my roommates were upset with me once, because I didn't come home one night, and I didn't call. It wasn't that I didn't hold them in esteem, or think their feelings weren't important; it was that I was very used to not having anyone care about my well being, so it never crossed my mind to call.

I think there's a little of that going on with Sherlock, and that's why when John asked him to be his best man, Sherlock kinda went into shock. Silence for eight minutes! :-)

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:

Tinks, when you refer to a time in canon when they aren't quite as close: are you referring to when Watson and Mary first get married?

I think in ALL eras of canon, their relationship is actually better than it EVER is here.

 
I am referring to when Watson is first married, yes.
I agree with you though, their relationship in the books never makes me feel as sad as it does in HLV!

besleybean wrote:

Aw come on, don't despair...
We had to wait 3 seasons, but we eventually got a hug between the boys!

 
Heh - loved the hug - Sherlock was like a little boy letting an elderly Aunt hug him :D

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:

Also, who was it (Sherlock vs Mary) who literally went into fire to save John a couple of episodes ago? Has John forgotten that?

I think John is not Letting himself remember-- because he does't want to feel; it might jeapordize the "Normal life" he so badly thinks he wants to live...

Sob.