SherlocklivesinOH wrote:

Wholocked wrote:

Just finished watching it so these are my initial thoughts.

I think that was entirely in character. He watched Sherlock jump to his death and mourned him for two years. Watching him get onto a plane into exile, alive, would be nothing. He deals with emotions by repressing them and he certainly wasn't about to burden Sherlock with whatever he might have been feeling at that moment.

They're not as close as they were either. John has Mary and his focus has been there. He thought Sherlock was dead and started a new life with her. Sherlock slotted back into his life in some way, but not in the same way. I think this whole season has been about the two of them working out what they are to each other in this new world, and I don't think either of them quite figured it out.

Be interesting to see what they do with the characters and the relationships in season 4.

Ozma was talking about the end scene when Sherlock is about to be exiled...but I had a similar reaction to how John behaved after Sherlock was shot. I think someone really dropped the ball on John's reactions (probably more the writers' fault than Martin's).

I don't think he was NEARLY scared or anguished enough. I wanted to see more caregiving toward Sherlock. And I think he let Mary off the hook WAY too easily. 

I can buy his accepting her past, especially if she was working for the CIA or some other government aligned with the UK. There would be a certain parallel with his own military career, and you could even think of it as "He married a female Sherlock.

But Dr. John Watson staying married to and in love with someone who SHOOTS SHERLOCK HOLMES? I always thought he would have zero tolerance for any harm to Sherlock.

Is this the same guy who punched a superintendent of Scotland Yard in the face for calling Sherlock "weird?" A punch in the face isn't fatal, but it's pretty serious in proportion to a verbal insult...made me think John could go a bit psychopath himself.

And then John's, "Is everyone I've ever met a psychopath?" It came off like he was mad at Sherlock for not cluing him in.

I would agree that John changed his relationship with Sherlock as a result of the Hiatus: he forgave him for the deception, but he also followed through with marrying Mary, so he both "went back to" Sherlock AND "moved on"...moved on from the original relationship he had where his whole life revolved around Sherlock.

(In canon, it went the other way: Watson got married, Holmes disappeared a few years later, Mary dies or is otherwise taken out the picture during the Hiatus, and Watson devotes his life to Holmes when Holmes returns.)

As for the end (plane) scene: John's "The game is over," did it for me. 

I've written a lot about season 3 John in these threads, so I won't repeat myself too much, but I think you make some good points, and the "game is over" part felt like a kick in the teeth
People have offered various takes on the goodbye scene, from John trying to keep a stiff upper lip to him thinking Sherlock would be coming back  - for me though, it wasn't John; something was off.

However, I totally think he was at the hospital with Sherlock - watch the scene with Lestrade, just before they realise Sherlock has gone - John seems to be personally managing his visitors!
And I firmly believe he'd have spent a lot of time there when Sherlock was taken back in, especially as he was estranged from Mary during that time.
(I'd like to think he apologised for being so harsh with Sherlock when he was so ill, too  but who knows?)

In Canon, there's a short period of time when the regard for each other is still very much there but they are not quite as close - then they become close again, as has already been mentioned - I think maybe season 3 was Moftiss' version of that time.
 

I know I'm repeating a little, but I was struck even when watching TEH by the fact that John could have gone to either of two extremes:

- I'm done with Sherlock; he's lied to me too many times and I have a normal life now

OR

- Sorry Mary, you were just something to fill the void when I didn't have Sherlock and now he's back.

He didn't do either: he reestablished ties with Sherlock, while also marrying Mary. And it did strike me that, consciously or not, that was to protect himself, because on some level, he always knew Sherlock could disappear again, or something else could happen that would take Sherlock out of his life.  

There is a reference to him not having seen Sherlock for a month after the wedding. Which is not so VERY long in the scheme of things...but frankly, I was surprised that he went that long. Appropriate and normal for a newlywed, of course, but I wouldn't necessarily have expected John to do the normal thing...

The commentary on that link posted here raises the some point I did, and then explains it the same way: there is still "baggage" (distrust) from John's hurt over Sherlock's faking his death.

Which really makes perfect sense.

Do you know what the problem is, why it doesn't feel right: we got the reunion (where John certainly showed some anger); then the love-fest that was TSoT, and NOW this. While in TSoT, we see evidence of Sherlock's insecurity about John's marriage affecting their relationship, it looks overall like things are generally ok between them. We don't see much sign (in TSoT) that John is still upset over Sherlock's deception.

And then in HLV that comes back. It seems like a big shift in mood (and in characters' feelings) from TEH, to the relative lightness of TSoT, and then back to HLV.

Last edited by SherlocklivesinOH (February 8, 2014 7:34 pm)

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:

Do you know what the problem is, why it doesn't feel right: we got the reunion (where John certainly showed some anger); then the love-fest that was TSoT, and NOW this. While in TSoT, we see evidence of Sherlock's insecurity about John's marriage affecting their relationship, it looks overall like things are generally ok between them. We don't see much sign (in TSoT) that John is still upset over Sherlock's deception.

And then in HLV that comes back. It seems like a big shift in mood (and in characters' feelings) from TEH, to the relative lightness of TSoT, and then back to HLV.

TSOT only seems to be light and funny. If you really look at it, the whole episode is full of dark symbols and foreshadowings of HLV.
This little dialogue, for example (Mrs Hudson and John in the kitchen after the stag night):
“Did you think you had found the right one when you married Mr Hudson?”
“No, it was just a whirlwind thing for us. I knew it wouldn’t work, but I just got sort of swept along.”
“Right.”
“And then we moved to Florida. We had a fantastic time, but of course I didn’t know what he was up to. The drugs.”
“Drugs?”
“He was running (…) a cartel. Got in with a really bad crowd.”
“Right.”
“And then I found out about all the other women. I didn’t have a clue! So when he was actually arrested for blowing someone’s head off, it was quite a relief, to be honest.”
“Right.”
“It was purely physical between me and Frank. We couldn’t keep our hands off each other. I know, there was one night …”
“Hang on, was that Sherlock?”
“Is it?”
“That’s Sherlock.”

No.
He just wants to get away from the conversation.

I don't know how many young-middle age men want to hear old women talk explicitly about their former sex lives.

Food for thought...

Swanpride wrote:

And maybe Sherlock initially kept his distance to protect John (or because he knew that John would neither approve of him taking drugs, no matter the reason, nor condone the deception of Janine)

Er, this is the same John whose solution to the ghost lover is that it's just a guy who wants anonymous one night stands, because that's what guys do; I really can't see that John turning into a maiden aunt wringing his hands over Sherlock...
 

I got the feeling that John kind of held Sherlock responsible for the fact that he (John) ended up married to an assassin...

QuiteExtraordinary wrote:

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:

Do you know what the problem is, why it doesn't feel right: we got the reunion (where John certainly showed some anger); then the love-fest that was TSoT, and NOW this. While in TSoT, we see evidence of Sherlock's insecurity about John's marriage affecting their relationship, it looks overall like things are generally ok between them. We don't see much sign (in TSoT) that John is still upset over Sherlock's deception.

And then in HLV that comes back. It seems like a big shift in mood (and in characters' feelings) from TEH, to the relative lightness of TSoT, and then back to HLV.

TSOT only seems to be light and funny. If you really look at it, the whole episode is full of dark symbols and foreshadowings of HLV.

True about the foreshadowing, but we still see John and Sherlock having a good time together, appearing to have put the Hiatus behind them, and in a better place (relationship-ise) than they seem to be in HLV. If John had leftover anger issues from TEH, they don't show up in TSoT. And Sherlock chooses to use the wedding to profess his love for John, rather than show his fear of losing John.

Tinks wrote:

besleybean wrote:

Tho he is one of Sherlock's team of carers!

 
Love this line - so true

Sherlock ruined a lot of John's relationships before he went away, and even though he conned John into thinking they were about to be blown up in order to bring about their reconciliation proper (like when he led him on a run through the London Streets in SiP for no reason other than to get him to forget his limp), I believe his apology came from the heart.
I've said this before, but I truly don't think that Sherlock sees himself as being of great importance to anyone on an emotional level - John was the only friend he'd ever had but I truly think he didn't expect John to grieve for him to the extent that he did.
So I think his guilt and surprise when he returns and finds out how badly John was affected, led to him backing off a bit when it came to analysing Mary - he'd be reluctant to be the cause of any hurt for John again?
Just a thought.

 
I think you are absolutely right; Sherlock was off guard because he truly hadn't expected John to have been so damaged. He was probably also rather hurt that John showed no interest in what Sherlock had actually been doing for the last two years; the way John carries on you would think Sherlock had been on an extended holiday and had failed to send him any postcards.

So no, not a good time to invite John to consider the possibility that the woman he was about to propose to was not to be trusted...