silverblaze wrote:

I'm looking forward to those new arguments. Or old arguments for that matter. Also looking forward to your reams, if you still like to write those. 

Regarding this one: It all comes down to what does Mycroft know, and what does Mycroft believe. I thusfar thought that if Mycroft knew Mary was blackmailed and that that would get to him via Sherlock, he'd consider himself in danger. I found his behaviour too passive for a powerful genius who finds himself in danger. Hence the alternative hypotheses. But maybe that's not true. He knew the link, he deduced CAM's plan and he still didn't consider himself in danger. That's because he has a genius brother who can dispose of people like CAM. So he just lets Sherlock, and it all works fine until the empty vaults. 

4: What I meant to say is not Mycroft explaining what a WPS is. I meant to say sitting her down and say 'Look, you endanger me, I've got a dilemma, get you into a WPS or have you killed. Your choice.' I think that's an offer one can't quite refuse.  But if Mycroft trusts Sherlock to sort it out he wouldn't do that, though it might have been the easier option for him. 

5. I like the story about saying the opposite that one wants but I don't think that's what Mycroft is doing here. It's only after the shooting that Mycroft would feel a need to get rid of CAM, because only at that point he realises that Mary is blackmailed. Before that he felt invulnerable to CAM and quite happy to threaten him and make deals with him as he pleased. CAM might have been quite useful to Mycroft. So I think his initial disapproval is genuie.

Also, if he did want Sherlock to take out CAM, he wouldn't have needed to resort to manipulation because that was Sherlock's plan already. Sherlock wouldn't stop chasing CAM if Mycroft approved either. And if you know someone your whole life and you don't want to ruin an already slightly strained relationship, manipulation won't be your first choice. Sherlock would see through anyway. 

Lady Smallwood is of no importance for Mycroft's POV. He doesn't know she's Sherlock's client and why. The reason he doesn't want Sherlock involved with CAM is because that'd endanger Sherlock and himself and he'd lose the advantage that he has over CAM. The shooting changed everything but we don't really get to see him again until Christmas.

The plausible deniability thing might be a reason why they didn't talk about it at all. Him asking Sherlock why he hated CAM seems to suggest that they hadn't talked about it previously. I do still find it weird that they don't talk but they probably don't need to. Sherlock probably has quite a good hunch about what Mycroft knows. 

 
If I were a genius I'd work out how to do those lovely nested replies, but whenever I try I end up with my Ipad telling me no, so I will have to stick with my less than scintillating IT skills:

Your first paragraph does seem the most likely explanation of Mycroft's behaviour; he does, after all, go undercover to haul Sherlock back to England to investigate the underground terrorist plot when he has plenty of other agents at his disposal. He clearly does think that Sherlock is simply the best, and he trusts him to get the job done.

4. I think there are a number of reasons for Mycroft's attitude; he knows the score and expects Mary to know the score as well. Going back to canon, our original Doctor Watson was usually pretty hopeless when it came to judging women; that's a recurring motif in many of the stories, and Mofftiss have tweaked it a bit with their update. But Mycroft is a far more cynical person; he's the Ice Man, as Irene Adler describes him, and he lives in a world where women have far more options than in canon. It's not solely a choice between good woman or adventuress any more; he is, in fact, paying Mary a sort of backhanded compliment in assuming that she knows the score. I suppose you could see this as an analogy of Sherlock asking Mary why she hadn't come to him; both he and his brother assume that this is what would happen. Of course, they both have egos the size of small planets to match the size of their brains

5. The problem with a 'not really bothered' Mycroft is reconciling that with CAM's statement to S&J that Mycroft has been after him for years, which does seem to me to ring true; obviously CAM is not to be trusted but I think his sheer glee when he thinks he has Mycroft over a barrel is genuine. It isn't just the buzz of having a very powerful man under his control; it's the fact that the very powerful man in question has opposed him for years which makes victory, or apparent victory, all the sweeter. I do not believe that Mycroft was ignorant of the way in which CAM wielded power over people, and I do not believe that Mycroft was happy with it. Whilst I am certain that Sherlock would not have told Mycroft about Lady Smallwood, I am not sure that Mycroft was totally ignorant of there being a problem. It comes down to the fact that Mycroft may be an Ice Man but he does have morals, and he can be surprisingly sensitive at times; Lady Smallwood is in his personal ambit, and he may have picked up the vibes. Lady Smallwood refused to buckle under, hence her husband's death because Sherlock has been out of action for months. But CAM was always on Mycroft's radar.

I take your point about the probability that Sherlock would have seen through Mycroft manipulating him, but I think that the fact that Mycroft made his CAM speech when Sherlock was apparently high as a kite may be relevant here. It can be argued both ways, of course; if Mycroft genuinely believed that Sherlock was hooked then CAM doesn't need Mary because he can obtain lots and lots of incriminating evidence on Sherlock, and try and use that as leverage on Mycroft. The first thing which Mycroft says is a pointed reference to the fact that Sherlock can't afford to have a drug habit now that he's a celebrity. I don't think Mycroft did believe it, though; I think that he came to check for himself because he is sceptical about John's ability to judge whether it's a high Sherlock or a hooked Sherlock, and it is his question 'what case could possibly justify this' which provokes Sherwood's one word reply 'Magnussen' and the ensuing speech, prefaced by the threat of incarceration of the people John had enlisted to search the apartment.

Frankly, I have to say that Mycroft was entirely right to not trust John's judgement on this because I think he recognises that a bored John is almost as troublesome as a bored Sherlock; it is, however, interesting that Mycroft accepts Sherlock's statement straight away. Whatever anyone else might think about Sherlock visiting a drug den on a case, as soon as Sherlock mentions Magnussen Mycroft believes him, and Mycroft knows his brother very well. This in turn suggests that this is not the first time the brothers have discussed Magnussen; indeed, it would be highly unlikely if they had not. Most people have at least some concerns about the power of the media, and two brothers who believe in parliamentary democracy, notwithstanding its flaws and imperfections in the real world, are unlikely to believe that politics driven by tabloid journalism is the best thing since sliced bread. Mycroft's stance may genuinely have been 'better the devil that you know', but I doubt it;  brothers winding each other up in arguments seems a tad more plausible.

We don't know what Mycroft may have said to his brother in John's absence, but John is Mycroft's witness for plausible deniability purposes. But then, as you say, the shooting changed everything.  The fact that it took place in CAM's office means Mycroft has more reason than ever to want CAM taken down; it's easy enough to deduce who shot him, but if it had not been for CAM's methods of doing business in the first place Sherlock would not almost have died, and Mycroft loves his brother.

Yes, Mycroft really wants whatever is in Appledore's vaults, because CAM has clearly suborned any number of public officials and they need to be identified and dealt with, but he also wants CAM ruined. Unfortunately, even with two brains the size of small planets working on the problem they had made one vital error; there were no vaults...

Swanpride wrote:

I doubt that Mycroft looks into everyone personally. He would send one of his people out to collect whatever they can find on the person in question and have a look on the promising bits. If Mary's new identity is really well done, he might have only encountered a nice little file about an orphan who is now working as a nurse. had at least one other boyfriend beforehand, one who looked very similiar to John, and doesn't look at all suspicious on paper.

If Mycroft had known, I am sure he would have made sure that Mary "vanishes" long before John even considered marriage.

But we know that Mary's new ID was not even vaguely well done because it took Sherlock a few hours at most to break it. And that was when he was in very considerable pain from a life threatening injury.

The assumption that senior civil servants, and that is what Mycroft is, have people killed because they may potentially pose a threat in the future is, shall we say, not exactly evidence based. Mary may kill people because she thinks they may pose a threat- indeed, Mofftiss have specifically stated that Mary had to be outed because all the show would ever consist of would be this lethal killer nurse following Sherlock and John around shooting anyone who looked as if they might pose a threat- but Mycroft is not Mary.

'Disappearing' people is what happens in a totalitarian state; one of the things which Sherlock holds dear is that England is not a totalitarian state, and people are not disposed of because they may pose a threat at some point. If they were we would have a much smaller population
 

Lil

A proper reply tomorrow, but was not there was another man in a sheet in addition to the money lender in the grand Sophy? The Unknown Ajax seems to fit 

Silverblaze, Willow,
your ideas are all very interesting.
I wrote in another thread earlier that I think that Mycroft manipulated Sherlock into taking his laptop to CAM. I would now say that Mycroft did not manipulate Sherlock but somehow knew what his little brother was up to and just silently went along with it because it suited his own purposes. That's why he was at his parents house for christmas. He hates christmas! Even Sherlock being out of hospital would not make him attend a christmas dinner with his parents and PEOPLE! I'm not certain if Sherlock knows that Mycroft knows but I have a feeling that he does. Their conversation in the garden starts with Mycroft saying that he was glad Sherlock had given up on the Magnussen-Business. Sherlock asks (in disbelieve ?) "Are you?" Later, Magnussen is referred to as a dragon, Sherlock as the dragonslayer. Mycroft says Sherlock had more utility closer to home because "Here be dragons". May be that's Mycroft's way of telling Sherlock that he knows about the plan and that he's ok with it.

Just some thoughts.

lil wrote:

Pretty sure Mycroft knew everything about Mary from the start, and even if not then deffo from SH shooting. He left Mary in situ because it was to his and Johns advantage to do so.Mycrofts view on getting involved in anything seems to be the same as his one on legwork, never do it unless absolutely necessary.
Mycroft was never in danger from Mary or Magnusson at any point.
Thus Magnussons desperation to find a pressure point on Mycroft,  which he didn't actually do. He found one on Sherlock which became his undoing.
Mycroft does seem a know all/all powerful/machina whatever type character, but I think it's set up that way. Sherlock/ John could not , in a modern world get away with much of what they do or into many of the cases they do ,without the backing of a Mycroft type persona behind them. We know from hounds he seems to have lestrade under his influence and even at the end of hlv almost/likely gets Sherlock out of a open/shut murder charge, and even Magnusson says Mycroft is the most powerful man in england.
When you consider this , things look a lot different.
Conclusion seems to be simlar@here, that Mycroft/Sherlock planned things together. Tho I think Mycroft expected Sherlock to find another way..other than just shooting Magnusson.
Intresting thread wander here , tho posted similar ideas to this some time ago in another thread .
Seems to me tht the baby issue has stalemated everyone for the moment in regards@Mary so intrested to see what they do there.




@willow...heh Heyer  more the grand Sophy running rings around everyone than Venetia putting her foot in it methinks 
Which kinda makes Magnusson nothing but a man in a sheet trying to scare Mycroft with ghost noises...........

 
Yep; I do feel that the notion of Mycroft intervening when he doesn't have to is contrary to both canon and our version, and it undermines his canonical extraordinary influence/power. One of the ways you get to retain power is not to use it too often; ACD used Mycroft both as a means of preventing his Sherlock from being a Mary Sue and to provide an occasional glimpse of a deus ex machina.

I rather suspect that Mycroft is a master of the fine art of bureaucratic manoeuvring, which enables him to wield remarkable influence; he has connections, and his connections have connections. Lestrade is a good example; he is genuinely grateful to Sherlock for helping him out, which gives Mycroft a police officer he can trust, as well as lean on a bit if Sherlock has pushed his luck too far, which is not exactly a rare occurrence. Reading back in canon I was struck by the fact that ACD actually invented the idea of a networker, though of course usually everybody goes to Mycroft rather than Mycroft going to them. An honest police officer one can trust is a valuable asset, and I think Mycroft is good at recognising assets.

But Mycroft doesn't subscribe to the belief that he can wield power without responsibility; I think that perhaps is why people are a bit puzzled by him. Quite a few posters do seem to think that he just disposes of people willy nilly; Sherlock is, of course, absolutely opposed to a totalitarian state but so is Mycroft.

Magnussen really doesn't understand Mycroft because he doesn't understand why someone with power doesn't simply exercise it to do whatever he wants; that is what Magnussen would do in Mycroft's shoes. Whilst writing this it has struck me that up until now I had thought in terms of Magnussen being an example of a Sherlock gone bad, whereas he is, perhaps, also an example of a Mycroft gone bad.

I think Mycroft's comment that Sherlock could provoke a riot in a prison on a daily basis is an interesting way of manoeuvring away from a trial, but I also think he recognises the need for atonement, as does Sherlock who takes the job knowing that he will be dead in six months. Sherlock could run and never be found, but if he did that he wouldn't be Sherlock any more. He would turn into a Magnussen, and for Sherlock I think that truly would be a fate worse than death.

And on that cheerful note I have to go and do some shopping Au revoir!

Cleanshaven Doctor wrote:

Silverblaze, Willow,
your ideas are all very interesting.
I wrote in another thread earlier that I think that Mycroft manipulated Sherlock into taking his laptop to CAM. I would now say that Mycroft did not manipulate Sherlock but somehow knew what his little brother was up to and just silently went along with it because it suited his own purposes. That's why he was at his parents house for christmas.

That's what I believe now. I found it hard to believe that Mycroft would be trapped by that scheme so I think he just played along. Whether or not the brothers had planned this together or that Mycroft just guessed what Sherlock was up to I don't know. I'm not convinced that Mycroft manipulates Sherlock a great deal because Sherlock would see through. 

 But then, John is very trusting...

Much food for thought in your post.
However, I personally know both a nurse and a consultant who fell pregnant when using protection and neither had any idea for quite a while!

Swanpride wrote:

If Mycroft really were all-knowing and all-powerful, Sherlock wouldn't be in danger all the time. He would monitor his website and knew that Sherlock send Moriarty a message to meet him at the pool, for example.

 
I'm not suggesting that Mycroft is all knowing and all-powerful; he isn't God. He has excellent information sources, and a lot of agents at his disposal; he is also working at least 12 hours a day, every day of the week, because people that high up the chain do work those sorts of hours since they really do have massive amounts of work to get through. As I've previously suggested, albeit tongue in cheek, his pA might be a suspect for shooting Sherlock because he keeps messing up Mycroft's schedule.

And as besleybean has noted, Moriarty was still much more undercover at that time, and Sherlock is a bit of a loose cannon anyway; they were certainly still developing their information on Moriarty and estimating what level of threat he posed.

Establishing that Mary has a dodgy backstory is a far simpler process; if you are doing a basic security work up  it is very easy to check electoral records, phone directories, etc in a few minutes. Add to that the apparent discrepancy between her income and outgoings and alarm bells are ringing loudly before you even start on background checks. A consulting master criminal with a worldwide network is a much bigger investment in research; it takes a great deal of time to put all the pieces together...

Silverblaze


Well, I have tried again but I am still having difficulties; I must say that I am greatly impressed by your ability to write so fluently in English, which is not your first language, pand do IT stuff as well!

You wrote

' On not forcing Mary into a WPS: Maybe they guessed that Mary already knew the score but I fhintk it's more plausible that Mycroft let Sherlock work out a solution that would save Mary and John's marriage. That'd do the least damage. Maybe Mycroft doesn't care but Sherlock does.'

Yes; that makes more sense. They are still left with the problem that CAM's sources are still alive, and therefore Mary is indisputably vulnerable. If they are to maintain the marriage then both John and Mary would have to go into a WPS; I really cannot see Mofftiss writing John out so something will have to give!


' I agree that CAM and Mycroft were opponents and CAM was telling the truth here but I think Mycroft was telling the truth too. They were playing a long game. Mycroft didn't see an urgent reason to take out CAM at that time because he considered himself very hard to blackmail. Therefore, Sherlock taking drugs in an effort to create a pressure point as bait was probably not something Mycroft was intensely pleased about.'

Mycroft certainly changed completely as soon as he heard 'Magnussen'!

'Hence the celebrity remark and the threats. He really didn't want Sherlock to be involved and messing up his game but he underestimated Sherlock's disgust with Magnussen. For Mycroft it's probably a lot more theoretical and I think Sherlock's reaction really surprised him. It's only after the shooting that the need to take out CAM became so urgent that it warranted the risk. I do think Mycroft's concern about Sherlock's drug habit was genuie, they don't see each other all the time, Sherlock has a history and his personal circumstances changed, it's plausible. However, Mycroft believed him when he mentioned Magnussen, because he immediately understood why Sherlock would fake a drug habit for him. He also immediately realised that this would bring him into a more vulnerable position, hence the sudden cooling of the atmosphere and him using the worst threat he could think of: 'you're going against me'. I think Mycroft has no choice but to be honest with Sherlock. They simply know each other too well and are too observant. Without manipulation at his disposal, he can only resort to threats. Had their relationship been a bit warmer, he could probably just have asked, alas. (They should really get that fixed someday'
 
Well, yes; I think that if Mycroft and Sherlock ever get some free time, in between taking down worldwide criminal networks, thwarting plots to blow up the Houses of Parliament, and preventing the subversion of democracy by power crazed sadistic blackmailers, they really do need to improve their communications  The problem is that Mofftiss seem reluctant to let up the pressure; we have so many unanswered questions about Mary, Janine, and who on earth is behind the 'Miss me?' that it seems unlikely that they're going to have much free time to work on the sibling rivalry  I'm pretty sure that Mycroft deliberately drank the punch knowing it was drugged, as this would give him another layer of plausible deniability should things go wrong, but I'm still on the fence about why Mary was carrying AGRA around with her...