BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » A.G.R.A

liederlady221b · January 30, 2014 2:52 am

Willow wrote:
CAM got the information from somewhere, even if he didn't have a dead mans switch arrangement; the only sense I can make of Mary carting incriminating evidence against her around with her, instead of destroying it, is that she hoped to deduce his sources from the internal evidence on the memory stick.

Of course, her reason for that is murky unless she proposes to kill the sources; they remain a danger to her, and whilst I understand John's desire to protect the mother of his child I do not think he is up for premeditated murder.

Yes to all of this. I thought it extremely suspect that an intelligence agent/killer for hire would just be carrying around all the info about her (horrible) past. It's not like there was an interval between the trip from Leinister Gardens to Baker Street for Mary to go and pick it up from her secret agent safety deposit box! She either got the stick from the same resource as Magnussen (and possibly killed whoever that was) and/or she took the memory stick with her to lure Sherlock during their meeting. However, it's just as possible that the stick was empty, and she was gambling on John's love for the baby (if not for her). John's very much an open book to those close to him.

Speaking of baby, while reading through the comments for this panel, I'm beginning to theorize that the "lost treasure" may be symbolic of John's happiness and desire for a family.

Killing off a pregnant woman seems a bit extreme for the show. But having circumstances of Mary's past forcing her to flee with baby in tow (a la the bogus Adler "witness protection scheme") seems a kinder, gentler means of disposal. Perhaps John can't join them because he'd somehow further imperil his wife and child (being too recognizable as Sherlock Holmes' sidekick?), or Mycroft may simply issue her an ultimatum and that John won't be part of the package (because it's obvious Sherlock needs John in his life). This scenario would still provide the emotional damage Moffat and Gatiss love to inflict on us, yet get the show back to Sherlock and John where it should be.

Tinks · January 30, 2014 5:41 am

I don't suppose it could be possible that she's not actually pregnant?? Too far fetched for her to be tricking her husband with a fake bump I suppose?;)

Anyway, on the shooting - I'm convinced Mycroft doesn't know it was Mary, yet it DID happen in CAMs office which makes it odd that he was still acting as though CAM was no big threat, when he and Sherlock were talking outside their parents' house.

One other thing - about the marriage being a "fairy tale" - I'd absolutely HATE it if it turned out that Mycroft - and, even worse, Sherlock, knew that Mary wasn't who John thought she was, before the Wedding took place; for all Sherlock's faults, I've always believed his affection for John to be genuine so I'd hate to think he'd deliberately let him get hurt.

besleybean · January 30, 2014 6:30 am

Well we're all grown ups here and know fairytales don't exist.
Real marriages are complictaed and hard work.
Maybe John just needed to be helped to face up to reality.
However, Sherlock may not have wanted to dig too deeply about Mary, because he didn't want to hurt John.
But yes, interesting to see how it all pans out.

silverblaze · January 30, 2014 11:12 am

Willow wrote:
He knows that Sherlock is protecting someone, which is not terribly hard since even John managed to work that out, and by a process of elimination it is most likely to be Mary.

There could be all kinds of reasons why Sherlock didn't tell who shot him, protecting the shooter is not the only one, only John jumped to that conclusion. They might have settled it privately, the shooter might have witnessed Sherlock committing a crime, love doesn't need to be the motive. And keeping things from Mycroft is what Sherlock does normally. Mary might be on his list, but probably not alone.

Willow wrote:
You ask why Mycroft doesn't get rid of her, and the simple answer is that Mycroft isn't Mary; he doesn't just kill people because they are in his way.

He does get rid of people, he tried to get rid of Irene, he locked up Moriarty without a chance on a fair trial and then got rid of him with Sherlock. If Mary poses a serious threat, he'd find a way to stop that from happening, maybe not immediately by killing, but he isn't above that. He's ethical, but a utilitarian, and threats to him would not just affect him personally, he's got the most responsible job on the planet.

Willow wrote:
And there is singularly little point in him telling Sherlock that Mary shot him; Sherlock knows that already

I didn't mean telling him who shot him, I meant telling him something about her backstory. It kinda makes sense that if your brother gets involved with a fugitive assassin, you'd warn him if you knew.

My real reason is this: I don't think Mycroft knows what CAM knows or he would be a little bit more proactive. Maybe talking to his brother for a change, collaborating to bring CAM down, confronting Mary, giving her protection... There are plenty of things he could do. It makes no sense that he would have Sherlock sort it out by himself if he knew. That's why I think he's missing a link in that chain somewhere. The link between CAM and Mary seems to me the most obvious one.

Davina · January 30, 2014 11:20 am

You might not tell your brother if you knew that would compromise her new identity and if you knew that this had been given to her because she had been on 'the same side' as you. She may have done terrible things but that does not preclude her working for the 'good guys' (as subjective as that term is).

Willow · January 30, 2014 1:14 pm

silverblaze wrote:
Willow wrote:
He knows that Sherlock is protecting someone, which is not terribly hard since even John managed to work that out, and by a process of elimination it is most likely to be Mary.
There could be all kinds of reasons why Sherlock didn't tell who shot him, protecting the shooter is not the only one, only John jumped to that conclusion. They might have settled it privately, the shooter might have witnessed Sherlock committing a crime, love doesn't need to be the motive. And keeping things from Mycroft is what Sherlock does normally. Mary might be on his list, but probably not alone.

Willow wrote:
You ask why Mycroft doesn't get rid of her, and the simple answer is that Mycroft isn't Mary; he doesn't just kill people because they are in his way.
He does get rid of people, he tried to get rid of Irene, he locked up Moriarty without a chance on a fair trial and then got rid of him with Sherlock. If Mary poses a serious threat, he'd find a way to stop that from happening, maybe not immediately by killing, but he isn't above that. He's ethical, but a utilitarian, and threats to him would not just affect him personally, he's got the most responsible job on the planet.

Willow wrote:
And there is singularly little point in him telling Sherlock that Mary shot him; Sherlock knows that already
I didn't mean telling him who shot him, I meant telling him something about her backstory. It kinda makes sense that if your brother gets involved with a fugitive assassin, you'd warn him if you knew.

My real reason is this: I don't think Mycroft knows what CAM knows or he would be a little bit more proactive. Maybe talking to his brother for a change, collaborating to bring CAM down, confronting Mary, giving her protection... There are plenty of things he could do. It makes no sense that he would have Sherlock sort it out by himself if he knew. That's why I think he's missing a link in that chain somewhere. The link between CAM and Mary seems to me the most obvious one.

1 Lestrade also recognised that fact along with John; it's the sort of things which investigators do. They weren't confronted with someone who had simply been shot; they were confronted by someone who had been shot, died on the operating table, and then had vanished from the hospital at great risk to his life. Lestrade and John were looking at those facts, You are trying to find a different set of facts which ignore what really happened, but Occam's razor rules

2. Really? You think that the shooter who had seen Sherlock committing a crime just accidentally managed to get access in to CAM's security riddled office and apartment so he could just shoot him there? Again you are ignoring the facts; investigators start with ascertaining the facts and move on from there. Do you really expect people not to notice where he was shot? What are the chances of an unknown stranger with a grudge against Sherlock deciding the best way to take him out is in the offices of a billionaire with top dollar security, when s/he could just shoot him somewhere with easy access and exit routes? The very obvious answer is zero.

3. Back to the law; it was legal for Moriarty to be imprisoned, and to be released. We have laws which provide for that; you may not like those laws but they exist. Mycroft was not the person who got rid of Irene Adler; it was Sherlock. Mycroft did not dispose of Moriarty; Moriarty disposed of himself by committing suicide on the roof at Bart's. Mycroft certainly wanted to stop Moriarty from continuing to run a world wide criminal network, with access codes which would enable him to get through any IT security in the world, which is nice because anyone with an ounce of common sense would want him to. Mycroft could have had him killed at any point; he didn't do that because he's not Mary.

4. Well, I can certainly see that a Mycroft who had really wanted to be an agony aunt, but somehow got sidetracked into being responsible for the security of the nation, would want to have heart to hearts about the various romantic relationships amongst his brother's friends, but we're not living in that universe; we're living in the one where he is responsible for the security of the nation because he wants to be. And in that universe he works at least 12 hours a day, every day, and his PA would probably like to shoot Sherlock because he keeps screwing up Mycroft's schedule. It's probably just as well that Sherlock was found dying in CAM's flat because otherwise Mycroft's PA would undoubtedly be a suspect, at least up until the time Sherlock went AWOL from the hospital.

5 So, it really boils down to you thinking that he should have warned Sherlock to keep away from John because John's girlfriend had a dodgy past. The difficulty with this is that he wanted Sherlock back in London to investigate the plot to blow up the Houses of Parliament; the last thing he wanted would be to divert Sherlock into thinking about John's girlfriend instead. It's all about what's important; you seem not to recognise that in Mycroft's world the need to protect the country far overrides almost everything else. He needs a Sherlock who is on, not one sidetracked into worrying about John has got mixed up with. Admittedly he probably thought that Sherlock would spot her in seconds, but he was not going to deliberately precipitate that at a time of crisis.

I do like Mycroft as a character, but no-one could describe him as modest; he knows that he is a prize catch for anyone wishing to exert power. If you reread the first scene where Sherlock and Mycroft go head to head about CAM you will see that it works very well as Mycroft saying don't go up against CAM because if you do that you threaten me. Sherlock misinterprets that as Mycroft wanting to protect CAM, but Mycroft knew all along what the prize in the great game was; it was Mycroft.

Willow · January 30, 2014 1:20 pm

Davina wrote:
You might not tell your brother if you knew that would compromise her new identity and if you knew that this had been given to her because she had been on 'the same side' as you. She may have done terrible things but that does not preclude her working for the 'good guys' (as subjective as that term is).

Yes; I think that's plausible. All sorts of awful people have been given new identities because they were prepared to provide information about other awful people; there is an ethical dilemma in revealing those identities. And Mycroft does have ethics

silverblaze · January 30, 2014 2:38 pm

1 The problem with Occam's razor is that it's only as good as your data set. I agree with all those facts, I agree to what direction they point and I agree Mary would be on Mycroft's list of suspects. The anomaly that messes the whole thing up for me is Mycroft's behaviour. He doesn't seem to act as if he knew, therefore somewhere he misses a link in the chain. I think it might be here. The only other alternative is that he underestimates how much Sherlock cares about John and Mary. All the other links are known to him.

2. Haha, no, in that alternative scenario it wouldn't have been someone who wanted to kill Sherlock and saw the golden opportunity when he was in a highly secured office and decided to climb the wall from the outside. It could be someone who was ther with CAM and protected him, hence CAM's lying.

3. I was under the impression that Moriarty's imprisonment was outside the law, torture certainly is outside the law, as far as I'm aware. I could be wrong about the UK here. Mycroft is the one who tried to get rid of Irene, Sherlock was the one who saved her. Without him, Mycroft would have killed Irene. He is certainly capable of killing, but won't do that unless there's a pressing need.

4. LOL at the agony aunt thing. His PA would probably have a point. I agree with your characterisation, Mycroft works all the time and has more responsibilty than anyone else. Therefore Mycroft would know that a blackmailed assassin in your close circle of friends is probably a liability, not just to himself, but to everyone he's responsible for. He'd do something about that. He doesn't, that's why I think he's missing something. Working on more important things than your brother's friends would be a good reason.

5 At that point he didn't consider himself in danger. Linking Mary to CAM would provide enough ground for him to change that perception if he makes the same link that CAM made.

Willow wrote:
[...] you seem not to recognise that in Mycroft's world the need to protect the country far overrides almost everything else.

I do, actually. But I think a threat to Mycroft equals a threat to the country and that includes threats from his personal life and he would take that seriously. Even if it meant that (horror of horrors) he'd have to have a little chat about relationships and why assassins don't make great wives.

If he knew how vulnerable he was to CAM because of Mary, he'd do something and he doesn't do anything. He had time enough to confront Sherlock with his findings, he had time enough to find a solution, he didn't do any of those things. Therefore either he doesn't know CAM is blackmailing Mary or he underestimates Sherlock's involvement. That's the only other possibilty. He's done that before, though you'd think he might learn. Maybe he still hasn't adapted to the fact that Sherlock's not as detached as he once was, though that doesn't seem particularly smart. It could be a blind spot, it's a different kind of learning perhaps.

Willow · January 30, 2014 6:41 pm

silverblaze wrote:

1 The problem with Occam's razor is that it's only as good as your data set. I agree with all those facts, I agree to what direction they point and I agree Mary would be on Mycroft's list of suspects. The anomaly that messes the whole thing up for me is Mycroft's behaviour. He doesn't seem to act as if he knew, therefore somewhere he misses a link in the chain. I think it might be here. The only other alternative is that he underestimates how much Sherlock cares about John and Mary. All the other links are known to him.

2. Haha, no, in that alternative scenario it wouldn't have been someone who wanted to kill Sherlock and saw the golden opportunity when he was in a highly secured office and decided to climb the wall from the outside. It could be someone who was ther with CAM and protected him, hence CAM's lying.

3. I was under the impression that Moriarty's imprisonment was outside the law, torture certainly is outside the law, as far as I'm aware. I could be wrong about the UK here. Mycroft is the one who tried to get rid of Irene, Sherlock was the one who saved her. Without him, Mycroft would have killed Irene. He is certainly capable of killing, but won't do that unless there's a pressing need.

4. LOL at the agony aunt thing. His PA would probably have a point. I agree with your characterisation, Mycroft works all the time and has more responsibilty than anyone else. Therefore Mycroft would know that a blackmailed assassin in your close circle of friends is probably a liability, not just to himself, but to everyone he's responsible for. He'd do something about that. He doesn't, that's why I think he's missing something. Working on more important things than your brother's friends would be a good reason.

5 At that point he didn't consider himself in danger. Linking Mary to CAM would provide enough ground for him to change that perception if he makes the same link that CAM made.

Willow wrote:
[...] you seem not to recognise that in Mycroft's world the need to protect the country far overrides almost everything else.
I do, actually. But I think a threat to Mycroft equals a threat to the country and that includes threats from his personal life and he would take that seriously. Even if it meant that (horror of horrors) he'd have to have a little chat about relationships and why assassins don't make great wives.

If he knew how vulnerable he was to CAM because of Mary, he'd do something and he doesn't do anything. He had time enough to confront Sherlock with his findings, he had time enough to find a solution, he didn't do any of those things. Therefore either he doesn't know CAM is blackmailing Mary or he underestimates Sherlock's involvement. That's the only other possibilty. He's done that before, though you'd think he might learn. Maybe he still hasn't adapted to the fact that Sherlock's not as detached as he once was, though that doesn't seem particularly smart. It could be a blind spot, it's a different kind of learning perhaps.

1. We don't see Mycroft before Christmas, so we have no way of judging whether he was behaving as if he knew or not.

2. If it was someone who accidentally was in CAM's office at that time, who had a previous grudge against Sherlock, then there would have been no reason for Sherlock to have left the hospital; he would simply identified that person to Lestrade and Mycroft.

3. Let me direct you to the provisions of the Prevention of Terrorism Act, 2000, which allows for people to be detained without charge for 14 days, after which other time limits kick in. Given Moriarty's penchant for wrapping people in explosives it would not be difficult to justify his detention. And I don't recall Mycroft doing much in the way of torturing Moriarty; that would have spoiled the great scene on Bart's roof where Sherlock convinces Moriarty that he is a great deal more ruthless than Mycroft when it comes to extracting information about threats to people he loves. That is what causes Moriarty to commit suicide.

As for Irene Adler, allow me to direct you to the transcript provided by the wonderful Ariane DeVere on her Livejournal: it is crystal clear that Mycroft has accepted that he had lost, his career has been destroyed, and that the whole country had successfully been held to ransom. It was at that point that Sherlock finally got his brain into action and solved the code into Irene's phone:

SHERLOCK (his eyes still fixed on Irene’s): There you are, brother. I hope the contents make up for any inconvenience I may have caused you tonight.

MYCROFT I'm certain they will.

(Sherlock turns and begins to walk towards the door.)

SHERLOCK: If you’re feeling kind, lock her up; otherwise let her go. I doubt she’ll survive long without her protection.

And of course, Irene begs Sherlock, finishing with the line:

'I won't even last six months'

to which Sherlock replies

'Sorry about dinner'

and walks out. The fact that some months later he does a quick trip to Karachi to assist her in retaining her head is a reflection of the fact that she was quite right about her chances, but it was Sherlock who put her there, not Mycroft.

4. I'm not sure why you believe that Mycroft would need to 'confront Sherlock with his findings', since Sherlock knows them once he's been shot, so presumably you mean at some point after the terrorist plot has been resolved but before the wedding. Frankly, there are so many people who would like Sherlock dead that Mycroft may well have concluded that an assassin here or there makes no difference, and he certainly sees no reason why he should play marriage counsellor to the Watsons; I can't see him opining on the value of truthfulness in interpersonal relationships. Structurally, of course, the writers don't let him do that because it would spoil the big reveal, but it is still in character.

Once we get into HLV the writers have more structural problems because you can't have too many confrontations; Mycroft has already confronted Sherlock about taking drugs and CAM. This is yet another reprise on SIB, where Irene casually remarks that Sherlock is unimportant since it is Mycroft who is the target; I really don't think that either Sherlock or Mycroft has forgotten that episode. Particularly since it includes the line:

'your biggest security leak is your own little brother'

Mycroft does not believe that Sherlock needs to know anything more than Sherlock can deduce perfectly well for himself; he is trying to avoid a rerun of SIB. It may be that it did not occur to Mycroft that his brother hadn't spotted her and assumed Sherlock was OK with it; there are times when people with brains the size of small planets fall into the trap of thinking that everybody has brains the size of small planets.

5. The blackmail is a crucial point but I suspect that Mycroft doesn't give a toss one way or another; Mycroft knows that just about everybody has secrets they are desperate to keep. Worst case scenario is Mary killing CAM; certainly not something Mycroft would instigate, but he may be prepared to ignore it in much the same way as the Sherlock of the canon story ignored it.

He didn't expect Mary to shoot Sherlock. After that his game plan is completely different; it's to keep Sherlock alive. He knows who shot him, and Mary would have to be a great deal less clever than she is not to realise that Mycroft knows, so Mary is unlikely to take another pop at him, and I really cannot see John tolerating Mary having another pop at Sherlock either.

I think that part of the problem you are having with this is that you expect Mycroft to care on a personal level about what happens to Mary before or after she shot Sherlock; the idea that he would find a solution is predicated on that assumption. Sure, if she hadn't shot anyone in CAM's office then Mycroft would almost certainly be amenable to a Witness Protection type deal in exchange for everything she knows, and it would have brought the two brothers together to take down CAM, which would have been fun. But we have no reason to believe that Mary actually wanted to go into a Witness Protection scheme, particularly since Mary seems to prefer resolving her problems with a gun, which is why she shot Sherlock, so we still have the same problem. CAM's death merely postponed the inevitable; there are still people out there who hate Mary and want her dead, and if CAM could assemble that information then so can anyone else. Lady Smallwood's problem could have been resolved by destroying the letters, which turned out not to exist anyway. But Mary's problem is in the shape of people, and you cannot destroy people in the way that you can destroy letters.

In the end, if she is not prepared to go into a Witness Protection scheme then the only solution is Mary's death; I think Mycroft is too much of a realist not to be aware of it, and I'm pretty sure Sherlock does as well; after all, Sherlock didn't shoot CAM for Mary. Sherlock would murder for his country, and pay the price, but not for an individual; Mycroft is England in Sherlock's view. John may or may not have thought his way through to the logical conclusion that sooner or later Mary's past will catch up with her; he may or may not have been putting up a brave front for the departing Sherlock.

I really love the way that Moftiss used so much of His Last Bow in such a sneaky way

Ormond Sacker · January 30, 2014 7:19 pm

Two things here.

Willow wrote:
'your biggest security leak is your own little brother'

Mycroft does not believe that Sherlock needs to know anything more than Sherlock can deduce perfectly well for himself; he is trying to avoid a rerun of SIB. It may be that it did not occur to Mycroft that his brother hadn't spotted her and assumed Sherlock was OK with it; there are times when people with brains the size of small planets fall into the trap of thinking that everybody has brains the size of small planets.

First this. The reason Sherlock walked into Irene's trap was that Mycroft didn't explain anything to him, he just set him loose on her to fetch the phone then called him off as if he was a dog. If Mycroft wants to avoid a repetition of events, surely telling Sherlock things would appear a more intelligent strategy. Plus Sherlock seems a bit of a loose canon when left to his own devices.

Willow wrote:
Sherlock would murder for his country, and pay the price, but not for an individual; Mycroft is England in Sherlock's view. John may or may not have thought his way through to the logical conclusion that sooner or later Mary's past will catch up with her; he may or may not have been putting up a brave front for the departing Sherlock.

Honestly I can't see Sherlock murdering for his country, in fact he seems to care very little for Jolly Old England. He ctaully berates John in TGG for being quaint, standing up for Queen and Country.
But I could see him murdering for someone he loves, and yes that includes his brother. However much he and Mycroft is at odds with each other Sherlock would not allow him to come to harm. That is where he and Mycroft deviates, Mycroft is ever dispassionate, Sherlock cares. He may try not to, but he does.

Willow · January 30, 2014 8:44 pm

Ormond Sacker wrote:
Two things here.

Willow wrote:
'your biggest security leak is your own little brother'

Mycroft does not believe that Sherlock needs to know anything more than Sherlock can deduce perfectly well for himself; he is trying to avoid a rerun of SIB. It may be that it did not occur to Mycroft that his brother hadn't spotted her and assumed Sherlock was OK with it; there are times when people with brains the size of small planets fall into the trap of thinking that everybody has brains the size of small planets.
First this. The reason Sherlock walked into Irene's trap was that Mycroft didn't explain anything to him, he just set him loose on her to fetch the phone then called him off as if he was a dog. If Mycroft wants to avoid a repetition of events, surely telling Sherlock things would appear a more intelligent strategy. Plus Sherlock seems a bit of a loose canon when left to his own devices.

Willow wrote:
Sherlock would murder for his country, and pay the price, but not for an individual; Mycroft is England in Sherlock's view. John may or may not have thought his way through to the logical conclusion that sooner or later Mary's past will catch up with her; he may or may not have been putting up a brave front for the departing Sherlock.

Honestly I can't see Sherlock murdering for his country, in fact he seems to care very little for Jolly Old England. He ctaully berates John in TGG for being quaint, standing up for Queen and Country.
But I could see him murdering for someone he loves, and yes that includes his brother. However much he and Mycroft is at odds with each other Sherlock would not allow him to come to harm. That is where he and Mycroft deviates, Mycroft is ever dispassionate, Sherlock cares. He may try not to, but he does.

Actually, Sherlock walks into the trap because Sherlock's ego is the size of a small planet; there is nothing that Mycroft could have done or said that would have changed it. Mycroft was gravely at fault, as he admits, because he set Sherlock running in the first place; he should never have asked for his help. It is difficult to see what he could have said to Sherlock about Irene Adler that would have changed the way that Sherlock acted. People keep saying that if Mycroft had just talked to Sherlock everything would have been different, but they never specify what it is which would have made a difference.

As for the England thing I think you need to bear in mind that there is a difference between the stereotypical John Bull and the real deal; one can agree that patriotism is the last refuge of scoundrels whilst simultaneously being prepared to die in the service of your country. That is, after all, what Sherlock agreed to do; is it so difficult to believe that Sherlock would murder in the service of his country? I'm fairly sure that Sherlock regarded CAM as a global threat to a genuinely free society; that is what he says to John at the beginning, and I think he meant it. I do agree entirely that Sherlock loves his brother, and disagree that Mycroft is always dispassionate; he seemed to be quite proactive in the helicopter shouting that they mustn't shoot his brother. But for Sherlock his brother does in some way embody his country; Mycroft in turn plays the game in responding to Sherlock's 'who needs me this time?' with the single word 'England'.

Both brothers recognise, however, that murder is murder; Sherlock acts when he realises that CAM really can 'destroy the lives of everyone he loves and everything he holds dear'. But he never claims that it is not murder, and he never tries to weasel out of the consequences. Nor does Mycroft...

silverblaze · January 31, 2014 11:43 am

1. For someone who is at great risk to betray the nation to a blackmailer, he's remarkably calm.

2. No grudge, defending CAM, Sherlock could have left to persuade them to not press charges.

3. I interpreted the roof scene as even more ruthless than Mycroft, who is already really ruthless. There's a flashback scene in TRF in which Moriarty is hit, it's implied that he's tortured more than that.

Irene: here's the dialogue where Mycroft tells John he got rid of her. Also from Ariana DeVere.

JOHN: He’ll be okay with this witness protection, never seeing her again. He’ll be fine.
MYCROFT: I agree. That’s why I decided to tell him that.
JOHN: Instead of what?
MYCROFT: She’s dead. She was captured by a terrorist cell in Karachi two months ago and beheaded.
JOHN: It’s definitely her? She’s done this before.
MYCROFT: I was thorough – this time. It would take Sherlock Holmes to fool me, and I don’t think he was on hand, do you?

I see you can interpret it as being thorough in investigating, but I saw it that he'd arranged the Karachi capture. Especially because of Mycroft's icy look when he says 'I was thorough this time'.

4.

Willow wrote:
'I'm not sure why you believe that Mycroft would need to 'confront Sherlock with his findings.'

Because we're talking about a different time period, I meant after the shooting and Sherlock's escape, because that would have linked Mary to CAM. If Mycroft knew Mary was blackmailed, he'd know he'd become vulnerable. I'm not talking about fixing their marital problems, or Sherlock's personal life, I'm talking about averting the threat to Mycroft. The blackmail problem needs to be solved for Mycroft's sake, not for Mary's.

5.

Willow wrote:
I think that part of the problem you are having with this is that you expect Mycroft to care on a personal level about what happens to Mary before or after she shot Sherlock; the idea that he would find a solution is predicated on that assumption.

No, I think that he needed a solution to save himself and the country. Solving Mary's problem would have been one way, killing her another, sure he prefers the first. But that's only under the hypothesis that he can make the link from CAM, via Mary, John and Sherlock to him. If he couldn't, then he wouldn't have bothered.

You seem to agree that he doesn't make that link. I thought that was because he doesn't link CAM to Mary but you say he must have. Then where else does he miss something? It must be that he underestimates Sherlock's love for John and Mary.

I agree that Sherlock shot CAM also for Mycroft and the country, not just for Mary and John, but if it wasn't for them he wouldn't even have been there, he wouldn't have found the need to set up his trap and Mycroft wouldn't have been in danger.

Tinks · January 31, 2014 12:19 pm

Sorry to be thick here, but I'm not understanding why Mycroft was in danger?
The laptop handed over was password protected with GPS - Sherlock knew this, knew Mycroft would be on his way.
I get that CAM wanted Mycroft in his pocket/under his control, and planned to do this by getting at Sherlock, through John and Mary - but the line back to Mycroft actually being under threat seems weak to me.
I need to watch again maybe, but I find those last scenes quite hard to watch.

Willow · January 31, 2014 3:02 pm

Tinks wrote:
Sorry to be thick here, but I'm not understanding why Mycroft was in danger?
The laptop handed over was password protected with GPS - Sherlock knew this, knew Mycroft would be on his way.
I get that CAM wanted Mycroft in his pocket/under his control, and planned to do this by getting at Sherlock, through John and Mary - but the line back to Mycroft actually being under threat seems weak to me.
I need to watch again maybe, but I find those last scenes quite hard to watch.

You're not being thick; a few days ago I pointed out that Mycroft's real laptop was completely unnecessary since all Sherlock needed was a reasonable facsimile of it. As you have noted, it's password protected and has GPS. There were no circumstances under which Sherlock would give the password, and John certainly didn't know it.

This was when we were working out the timing and concluded that Sherlock really had just come out of hospital, as his mother said, hence the use of the (possibly) real laptop, and I think it may have been before you joined the forum.

I know what you mean about it being hard to watch those scenes, but I think you will find the wonderful Ariane DeVere's transcripts of all the episodes on her Livebook journal immensely helpful; if you read that scene at Appledore CAM tells them that Mycroft has been after him for years. He is expecting Mycroft to appear at any moment, to discover the secrets of his vault, and there is just one flaw. There are no vaults.

So, what he has now is Sherlock facing a charge of high treason and Mycroft permanently discredited, unless, of course, Mycroft is prepared to do whatever he wants, in which case Mycroft is now CAM's means of wielding a great deal of power over the country. That is the threat to Mycroft and that is why Sherlock shot CAM; without the vaults there is no way of uncovering the evidence of all the people CAM has suborned, which is what Mycroft wanted...

Tinks · January 31, 2014 3:17 pm

Thank you Willow. I see now - so much to take in through this episode; I'll take a look at those transcripts, thanks for telling me about them

Willow · January 31, 2014 4:27 pm

silverblaze wrote:
1. For someone who is at great risk to betray the nation to a blackmailer, he's remarkably calm.

2. No grudge, defending CAM, Sherlock could have left to persuade them to not press charges.

3. I interpreted the roof scene as even more ruthless than Mycroft, who is already really ruthless. There's a flashback scene in TRF in which Moriarty is hit, it's implied that he's tortured more than that.

Irene: here's the dialogue where Mycroft tells John he got rid of her. Also from Ariana DeVere.

JOHN: He’ll be okay with this witness protection, never seeing her again. He’ll be fine.
MYCROFT: I agree. That’s why I decided to tell him that.
JOHN: Instead of what?
MYCROFT: She’s dead. She was captured by a terrorist cell in Karachi two months ago and beheaded.
JOHN: It’s definitely her? She’s done this before.
MYCROFT: I was thorough – this time. It would take Sherlock Holmes to fool me, and I don’t think he was on hand, do you?

I see you can interpret it as being thorough in investigating, but I saw it that he'd arranged the Karachi capture. Especially because of Mycroft's icy look when he says 'I was thorough this time'.

4.
Willow wrote:
'I'm not sure why you believe that Mycroft would need to 'confront Sherlock with his findings.'
Because we're talking about a different time period, I meant after the shooting and Sherlock's escape, because that would have linked Mary to CAM. If Mycroft knew Mary was blackmailed, he'd know he'd become vulnerable. I'm not talking about fixing their marital problems, or Sherlock's personal life, I'm talking about averting the threat to Mycroft. The blackmail problem needs to be solved for Mycroft's sake, not for Mary's.

5.
Willow wrote:
I think that part of the problem you are having with this is that you expect Mycroft to care on a personal level about what happens to Mary before or after she shot Sherlock; the idea that he would find a solution is predicated on that assumption.
No, I think that he needed a solution to save himself and the country. Solving Mary's problem would have been one way, killing her another, sure he prefers the first. But that's only under the hypothesis that he can make the link from CAM, via Mary, John and Sherlock to him. If he couldn't, then he wouldn't have bothered.

You seem to agree that he doesn't make that link. I thought that was because he doesn't link CAM to Mary but you say he must have. Then where else does he miss something? It must be that he underestimates Sherlock's love for John and Mary.

I agree that Sherlock shot CAM also for Mycroft and the country, not just for Mary and John, but if it wasn't for them he wouldn't even have been there, he wouldn't have found the need to set up his trap and Mycroft wouldn't have been in danger.

1. Mycroft is always calm, except when his brother is in great danger of imminent death as on the terrace at Appledore.

2. I'm sorry, but that is ludicrous. Sherlock had died on the operating table, been hauled back from the brink, and then goes AWOL at great risk of his life in order to persuade some unknown person not to press charges. What charges?

3. I see nothing in that scene to support the idea that Mycroft had set Karachi up. He didn't need to, as Irene and Sherlock had acknowledged when Sherlock broke the code. What John and he were talking about was the possibility of Irene having faked her death, as she had done once before, and Mycroft was saying that he had been a lot more thorough in checking the second time around. And really, a flashback scene implying Moriarty has been hit is not exactly what could be described as compelling evidence for your assertion that Mycroft tortured Moriarty.

4. The particular blackmail problem you are referring to cannot be solved. Mary has left a trail of people in her wake who really want her dead, and nothing that anyone can do can change that; CAM has assembled the information from sources, and those sources still exist, irrespective of whatever happens to CAM. I suppose that Mycroft could have protected himself by outing her to one or more of that trail of people who would have been delighted to dispose of her, but he isn't Mary. So it's the Witness Protection scheme or nothing, and that would only work if Mary actually wanted to do that; she doesn't. Besides, the poor hapless English taxpayer might jib at footing the bill for the lifetime protection of someone who has nothing to offer and isn't even English in the first place.

5. Mycroft is extremely interested in what is in Appledore's vaults; I think he is certainly devious enough to have told Sherlock to keep away from CAM knowing it to be the one thing that would ensure that Sherlock got involved. Mary being blackmailed by CAM is useful for Mycroft because that too will keep Sherlock interested. Mycroft's great mistake was in not realising that she was capable of killing Sherlock; he didn't realise just how much of a psychopath she is. I doubt that he made that mistake afterwards, but as long as there was a potential route to Appledore's vaults then the game remained on.

It was the non-existence of the vaults which screwed everything big time...

silverblaze · January 31, 2014 11:13 pm

1. Well, he shouldn't have been, 'cause he was about to hand the reins to CAM.

2. Attempted murder on CAM, it's just an alternative hypothesis, there are probably more, because I find Mycroft's behaviour strange if he knew everything.

3. I concede, the torture is more implied and might have been a false narrative too. It was one of the first things I saw of Mycroft, that's why the Irene thing seemed to make sense too. Now I read the transcript I realise that it could just as well have been about checking the body.

4. I don't really see much other options other than getting her killed or in a witness protection program, though if Mycroft would have explained that dilemma to her, I'm sure she'd have been rather cooperative. There's no evidence that he did that.

5. No, just no. M and S might not always get along but their communication is not that poor. If Mycroft wanted Sherlock to check out the vaults, he'd told him straight and they might have collaborated. I think he only changed his mind after the shooting.

You made me think, here's what I now think happened:
Mycroft knew CAM could be a danger that's why he urges Sherlock to stay out of his way. After the shooting, he realised that Sherlock would be influenced by the blackmail of Mary. He realises this endangers him, and therefore he changes his opinion of CAM being a nessecary evil, CAM must be taken down, preferably without Mycroft's fingerprints on it. That's where Sherlock comes in, Mycroft trusts Sherlock to come up with a plan, probably foresees his every move and just plays along. The plan backfires and Sherlock is forced to shoot CAM. Mycroft now has to perform some bureaucratic ballet to keep Sherlock out of prison, not just for Sherlock's sake but also for himself, a murderer brother doesn't look so good on one's CV. With no link of Sherlock to CAM's murder in the official papers, Mycroft is free again.

Willow · February 1, 2014 1:48 am

silverblaze wrote:
1. Well, he shouldn't have been, 'cause he was about to hand the reins to CAM.

2. Attempted murder on CAM, it's just an alternative hypothesis, there are probably more, because I find Mycroft's behaviour strange if he knew everything.

3. I concede, the torture is more implied and might have been a false narrative too. It was one of the first things I saw of Mycroft, that's why the Irene thing seemed to make sense too. Now I read the transcript I realise that it could just as well have been about checking the body.

4. I don't really see much other options other than getting her killed or in a witness protection program, though if Mycroft would have explained that dilemma to her, I'm sure she'd have been rather cooperative. There's no evidence that he did that.

5. No, just no. M and S might not always get along but their communication is not that poor. If Mycroft wanted Sherlock to check out the vaults, he'd told him straight and they might have collaborated. I think he only changed his mind after the shooting.

You made me think, here's what I now think happened:
Mycroft knew CAM could be a danger that's why he urges Sherlock to stay out of his way. After the shooting, he realised that Sherlock would be influenced by the blackmail of Mary. He realises this endangers him, and therefore he changes his opinion of CAM being a nessecary evil, CAM must be taken down, preferably without Mycroft's fingerprints on it. That's where Sherlock comes in, Mycroft trusts Sherlock to come up with a plan, probably foresees his every move and just plays along. The plan backfires and Sherlock is forced to shoot CAM. Mycroft now has to perform some bureaucratic ballet to keep Sherlock out of prison, not just for Sherlock's sake but also for himself, a murderer brother doesn't look so good on one's CV. With no link of Sherlock to CAM's murder in the official papers, Mycroft is free again.

1. I see no reason to believe that Mycroft is about to hand the reins to CAM; it is only the discovery that there is no vault at Appledore that precipitates disaster.

2. Why would Sherlock risk his life leaving hospital in order to try and get CAM for attempted murder? All Sherlock has to do is tell Lestrade and Mycroft that CAM shot him. The only rational explanation for his behaviour is the one which John arrived at; your finding Mycroft's behaviour strange is not evidence which displaces the evidence which we have perfectly clearly in front of us.

3. I'm glad you've acquitted Mycroft on that one; I'm sure he'll get up to trouble in the next season so we'll have fun arguing about it

4. Mary is a trained intelligence agent, not some suburban housewife. She knows exactly what a Witness Protection Scheme is and she doesn't need Mycroft to explain it to her; she knows perfectly well who Mycroft is, and all she had to do was ask. Admittedly, she may have felt that her almost killing his brother was a tad embarrassing, but she is perfectly well aware that Mycroft would not allow his personal feelings to overrule his mind if she had anything to offer. The only half way sensible explanation I can think of for Mary carrying incriminating information about with her on a memory stick is that she was hoping to use it to deduce who CAM's sources were, and dispose of them. Since there are practical limits on the number of people you can kill and get away with it, once your cover has been blown, as Mary's has been, the realistic answer is that it's WPS or death.

5. I don't think this is about poor communications; Mycroft has learned the lesson in SiB that an excellent way to get Sherlock to do something is to tell him not to do it. I see no reason for Mycroft to have forgotten that lesson. Slightly off topic, actually completely off topic; one of my favourite moments in Georgette Heyer's 'Venetia' is when her uncle announces that he has no influence over an important person because she will do exactly the opposite to what he wants. To which comes the reply that he obviously knows to a nicety how to make her do exactly what he wants. I love the book in general but that line is a gem.
I think perhaps you are also overlooking Lady Smallwood; Sherlock would not betray her to his brother. Mycroft may suspect she is in trouble but that makes him even less likely to act overtly in her favour.

What Mycroft has set up is plausible deniability; he can't be criticised because he actually told him not to. However, I think your new hypothesis is really pretty clever, with minor amendments for things like plausible deniability, and so forth.

if I wasn't propping my eyelids open with match sticks I'd write reams about it. I'll try and so so tomorrow

silverblaze · February 1, 2014 2:14 pm

I'm looking forward to those new arguments. Or old arguments for that matter. Also looking forward to your reams, if you still like to write those.

Regarding this one: It all comes down to what does Mycroft know, and what does Mycroft believe. I thusfar thought that if Mycroft knew Mary was blackmailed and that that would get to him via Sherlock, he'd consider himself in danger. I found his behaviour too passive for a powerful genius who finds himself in danger. Hence the alternative hypotheses. But maybe that's not true. He knew the link, he deduced CAM's plan and he still didn't consider himself in danger. That's because he has a genius brother who can dispose of people like CAM. So he just lets Sherlock, and it all works fine until the empty vaults.

4: What I meant to say is not Mycroft explaining what a WPS is. I meant to say sitting her down and say 'Look, you endanger me, I've got a dilemma, get you into a WPS or have you killed. Your choice.' I think that's an offer one can't quite refuse. But if Mycroft trusts Sherlock to sort it out he wouldn't do that, though it might have been the easier option for him.

5. I like the story about saying the opposite that one wants but I don't think that's what Mycroft is doing here. It's only after the shooting that Mycroft would feel a need to get rid of CAM, because only at that point he realises that Mary is blackmailed. Before that he felt invulnerable to CAM and quite happy to threaten him and make deals with him as he pleased. CAM might have been quite useful to Mycroft. So I think his initial disapproval is genuie.

Also, if he did want Sherlock to take out CAM, he wouldn't have needed to resort to manipulation because that was Sherlock's plan already. Sherlock wouldn't stop chasing CAM if Mycroft approved either. And if you know someone your whole life and you don't want to ruin an already slightly strained relationship, manipulation won't be your first choice. Sherlock would see through anyway.

Lady Smallwood is of no importance for Mycroft's POV. He doesn't know she's Sherlock's client and why. The reason he doesn't want Sherlock involved with CAM is because that'd endanger Sherlock and himself and he'd lose the advantage that he has over CAM. The shooting changed everything but we don't really get to see him again until Christmas.

The plausible deniability thing might be a reason why they didn't talk about it at all. Him asking Sherlock why he hated CAM seems to suggest that they hadn't talked about it previously. I do still find it weird that they don't talk but they probably don't need to. Sherlock probably has quite a good hunch about what Mycroft knows.

besleybean · February 1, 2014 6:51 pm

I find that hard to believe.
Mycroft will have kept a close eye on John the whole time Sherlock was away.
So he must have known about Mary.
Did he not think to check her out?
Possibly.