BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » thoughts on rooftop scene after watching the empty hearse [spoilers]

zeratul · January 20, 2014 8:13 am

Hey,

I rewatched TRF and then TEH again. And I am still wondering if they planned it this way.

- Sherlock seems to be really surprised about what Moriaty does, but concerning what he tells Andersson he was not, because he knew Mycroft was feeding Moriaty information? (We know from TRF that Mycroft did in some way.)

- Sherlock is crying on the rooftop and he also seems surprised about Moriaty forcing him to jump? Or is he just crying because he knows what he does to John?

- Did Sherlock want Moriaty to stop his snipers or did he want to talk him into dying, but he says later he didn't anticipate his death wish.

- In TRF we see a sniper packing his stuff, how does it fits that he was threadened / shot by Mycrofts guys?

- Then again, in TRF there is blood on the stones before the point when they brought the corpse in. It is removed / has been reshot for TEH.

- We see in TRF that Sherlock asks Molly for help. But nothing about Mycroft.

- The most interesting point is still: How did Sherlock know, Moriaty made him jump and why did he seem to be surprised that much when he does?

Last edited by zeratul (January 20, 2014 8:38 am)

saturnR · January 20, 2014 11:16 am

zeratul wrote:
- The most interesting point is still: How did Sherlock know, Moriaty made him jump and why did he seem to be surprised that much when he does?

This last part got me thinking. He had all the plans set in place. Was it he texted Mycroft after Moriarty shot himself or before? If he texted after, it means that he really hadn't expected that Moriarty was gonna kill himself.

zeratul · January 20, 2014 11:33 am

From TEH he texted after Moriaty shot himself.
But still. Why had there been the plan to fake his death? How would he know Moriaty's plan? Or was he about to do it anyway? Did he invite Moriaty to watch him jump? But he couldn't fool him with an airbag, could he? It was a show for John.
Also Sherlock cried and told John, that he was a fraud. Those tears also vanished in TEH (need to rewatch it again).

anjaH_alias · January 20, 2014 11:45 am

zeratul wrote:
Hey,

I rewatched TRF and then TEH again. And I am still wondering if they planned it this way.

- Sherlock seems to be really surprised about what Moriaty does, but concerning what he tells Andersson he was not, because he knew Mycroft was feeding Moriaty information? (We know from TRF that Mycroft did in some way.)
He is acting/faking surprise sometimes to get information. Especially on the rooftop he played the doofus.

- Sherlock is crying on the rooftop and he also seems surprised about Moriaty forcing him to jump? Or is he just crying because he knows what he does to John?
Yes, the latter imo.

- Did Sherlock want Moriaty to stop his snipers or did he want to talk him into dying, but he says later he didn't anticipate his death wish.
He wanted him to stop his snipers.

- In TRF we see a sniper packing his stuff, how does it fits that he was threadened / shot by Mycrofts guys?
Maybe there´s somebody behind him, forcing him to pack?

- Then again, in TRF there is blood on the stones before the point when they brought the corpse in. It is removed / has been reshot for TEH.
?

- We see in TRF that Sherlock asks Molly for help. But nothing about Mycroft.
If you rewatch TRF you can see/feel that Mycroft was in on it. Every of his remarks could be interpreted literally or in another sense. E.g. when he says "sorry" to John in the Diogenes Club it´s obviously no sorry for giving away Sherlock´s life story, but a sorry for John.

- The most interesting point is still: How did Sherlock know, Moriaty made him jump and why did he seem to be surprised that much when he does?
Sherlock deduced it from the talk in Baker Street "I owe you a fall, Sherlock" and the movement with his head. And that he likes to kill him, he knew already since TGG. So he chose a tall building of his own for being prepared for the worst.

My answers in red above.

Last edited by anjaH_alias (January 20, 2014 11:47 am)

zeratul · January 20, 2014 12:03 pm

Thank you .
About that blood-thing i saw it on a youtube video or read it somewhere and also when rewatching. I will try to find it again.

Here you are: http://finalproblem.tumblr.com/post/72216672034/lazarus-solution-continuity-issue-blood-on-the

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-2308945/Benedict-Cumberbatch-dashes-switch-places-dead-stunt-man-filming-new-episodes-Sherlock.html

Last edited by zeratul (January 20, 2014 1:05 pm)

anjaH_alias · January 20, 2014 12:49 pm

Actually I don´t get it really, because I lost the thread while reading that blog . Sorry. If it´s really wrong it´s certainly a continuity error like with the cabbie in ep. 1 (his blood "disappears" somewhen while lying on the ground). Not more imo.

SherlocklivesinOH · January 20, 2014 4:36 pm

Watching the flash back scene, "it's all a magic trick," meant, not "my cleverness is all fake," but "what you are about to see - my supposed suicide - is a trick."

zeratul · January 20, 2014 5:01 pm

Yeah I thought that too, especially as the flashback starts there.

Sherlock Holmes · January 20, 2014 9:45 pm

I watched Reichenbach again tonight and just came on to post some of the same questions.

In answer to some of yours:

- I think he is genuinely surprised when Moriarty shoots himself. It's the only moment on that rooftop when he's not acting for Moriarty's benefit. Everything else he says is just pretend, playing the game
- In my opinion, he's crying because he's a very good actor who gets into his part. He was spinning John all this bullshit to give extra time to the people setting up below and to make sure John really believed that he was actually killing himself (whether he believes the reasons or not). Just like great actors can make themselves cry on stage almost subconsciously, so can Sherlock. He wasn't crying out of sentiment
- He genuinely wanted him to stop the snipers, not try to talk him into dying
- Yeah, I watched that sniper scene and thought exactly the same thing. For someone who apparently has another sniper behind him threatening to kill him unless he packs up his stuff, he doesn't seem very frightened as he casually does it. He doesn't even glance behind him once. I honestly think that's a weakness in the plot or a weakness in Sherlock's explanation that he gave to Anderson and another reason to make us doubt it's validity
- I've always believed Mycroft was involved right from the beginning. It's pretty much canon too so that was no great surprise
- I think Sherlock knew he was going to have to kill himself from the moment he got out of Kitty Riley's flat. He knew that that was what Moriarty's game was leading up to, the final problem.

My question is still this...how does Sherlock successfully guess/deduce/work out the names of the three people Moriarty is threatening with his snipers. Obviously John will be one of them. But how did he successfully name Mrs Hudson and Lestrade. Why not Molly and Mycroft? Did Sherlock have previous knowledge via Mycroft that this was happening? If we take Sherlock's explanation to Anderson as fact, then possibly yes, otherwise how would Mycroft know to send his men to threaten John's sniper?

My other question is....at which point does Sherlock send out the Lazarus text to Mycroft? Is there a specific moment in TRF when we can pinpoint where it may have happened, on screen?

zeratul · January 20, 2014 9:59 pm

Sherlock Holmes wrote:
My question is still this...how does Sherlock successfully guess/deduce/work out the names of the three people Moriarty is threatening with his snipers. Obviously John will be one of them. But how did he successfully name Mrs Hudson and Lestrade. Why not Molly and Mycroft? Did Sherlock have previous knowledge via Mycroft that this was happening? If we take Sherlock's explanation to Anderson as fact, then possibly yes, otherwise how would Mycroft know to send his men to threaten John's sniper?

My other question is....at which point does Sherlock send out the Lazarus text to Mycroft? Is there a specific moment in TRF when we can pinpoint where it may have happened, on screen?

Thanks for your thoughts .

Hm I guess he knew about who Moriaty thinks matter to him, because he tells Molly beforehand that Moriaty thought she would not count or am I messing around something now?

I also wondered about that text. But propably before he calles John, or even while dailing because he types really fast...

SherlocklivesinOH · January 20, 2014 10:04 pm

zeratul wrote:
Yeah I thought that too, especially as the flashback starts there.

And maybe, because of that "it's a trick" code-phrase, he was rationalizing, "well, I did tell John I faked it." But that doesn't let him off the hook, because he should know John's deductive abilities (or lack thereof) well enough by now to realize John wouldn't clue in.

zeratul · January 20, 2014 10:12 pm

SherlocklivesinOH wrote:
zeratul wrote:
Yeah I thought that too, especially as the flashback starts there.
And maybe, because of that "it's a trick" code-phrase, he was rationalizing, "well, I did tell John I faked it." But that doesn't let him off the hook, because he should know John's deductive abilities (or lack thereof) well enough by now to realize John wouldn't clue in.

yep!

Sherlock Holmes · January 20, 2014 10:39 pm

zeratul wrote:
SherlocklivesinOH wrote:
zeratul wrote:
Yeah I thought that too, especially as the flashback starts there.
And maybe, because of that "it's a trick" code-phrase, he was rationalizing, "well, I did tell John I faked it." But that doesn't let him off the hook, because he should know John's deductive abilities (or lack thereof) well enough by now to realize John wouldn't clue in.
yep!

Once again, John saw but didn't observe...or in this case, heard but didn't listen.

zeratul · January 20, 2014 10:42 pm

Yes, but in his defence: His feelings where in the way...

MahnSherlolly03 · January 21, 2014 1:55 am

I don't believe what Sherlock told Anderson, especially after reading all this. That one blog post convinced me.

Sherlock Holmes · January 21, 2014 1:37 pm

MahnSherlolly03 wrote:
I don't believe what Sherlock told Anderson, especially after reading all this. That one blog post convinced me.

Which blog post?

SolarSystem · January 21, 2014 5:44 pm

zeratul wrote:
Hm I guess he knew about who Moriaty thinks matter to him, because he tells Molly beforehand that Moriaty thought she would not count or am I messing around something now?

I think you are confusing two different things here.
In TRF Sherlock tells Molly that she counts, that she's always counted.
In TEH he tells her that Moriarty was wrong, because the one person that Moriarty thought didn't matter at all to Sherlock in fact mattered the most - Molly. But of course this could still mean that in TRF Sherlock already knew that Moriarty would be wrong about Molly.

Last edited by SolarSystem (January 21, 2014 5:45 pm)

zeratul · January 21, 2014 6:02 pm

I think he mentioned Moriaty in TRF in some way. Need to watch it again.

MahnSherlolly03 · January 21, 2014 10:42 pm

Sherlock Holmes wrote:
MahnSherlolly03 wrote:
I don't believe what Sherlock told Anderson, especially after reading all this. That one blog post convinced me.
Which blog post?

http://finalproblem.tumblr.com/post/72216672034/lazarus-solution-continuity-issue-blood-on-the

nakahara · January 11, 2015 8:07 pm

One must what exactly did take place on that rooftop.
Look what is adorning the furniture in Holmes´ household:

How was this photograph taken?
Moriarty took it?