I am a native English speaker who speaks one other language, and not very fluently anymore.  I know what it's like to not be able to express myself fully, and I appreciate and respect those who brave this forum to talk about the subject of Sherlock (even if I don't always agree (; ).  Kudos to all of the non-native English speakers!

Sorry for the off topic post, just felt the need to express that here.

I think we're asked to think about human nature and motivation.

Just a short thank you from me as one of the non-native speakers. 

Sherli Bakerst wrote:

SusiGo, you're welcome.

Back to the topic; well, I think this thread's topic--things have gotten kind of convoluted and overlapping.  Anyway, I just watched HLV again and I think the moment Magnussen opens the doors to his "vaults" is when Sherlock realizes and decides he has to kill CAM.  There's a very brief emotion that passes over his face and then disappears, and to me it seems that that's when it's clear to Sherlock that if he wants to save John and Mary, he has to kill CAM.  I'm now thinking that he probably went to Appledore knowing that might become necessary, but he was probably hoping he could avoid having to do it.  I think he makes sure John brings his gun with him just in case he has to use this back-up plan.  From his expression, it's clear he doesn't want to do it but that he feels there is no other alternative.

Watching the farewell scene at the airport, I now think it was very emotional between John and Sherlock, in a very understated way.  John says at the start of it there's nothing more to say or they've already said everthing (it's only been five minutes and already I can't remember exactly).  So maybe they've had other conversations prior to this meeting.  In any case, I think the joking about the name thing is their way of not wanting to say good-bye to each other.  All the important things have already been said, or can't be said--because they are English and men--so they resort to rather meaningless chitchat instead.  It's their way of trying to avoid the inevitable, their way of prolonging contact with each other because netiher of them realy want to be the one to say good-bye.  But when Sherlock extends his hand, and takes off his glove for that additional amount of human contact--John pauses a moment before accepting it, knowing that that means they really do have to finally separate.

Also, I think Sherlock's expression of sadness on the plane is not regret that he killed CAM and sadness that he might never see John again but that he let John down.  John, after all, has always had a very high opinion of Sherlock and his, John's, reaction to what Sherlock did, right after he shot CAM, was disbelief.  Sherlock knows in what high regard John held him and I think Sherlock was feeling a little sadness that he hadn't lived up to John's expectations.  On the other hand, I do not think Sherlock felt any regret about killing CAM.

Sorry if these ideas have already been stated previously here or in another thread but I wanted to post my thoughts after having watched HLV a third time.  Even though I still have lots of questions, I am liking this episode more and more each time I watch it.

I think you've made some very good observations here. And I think both Sherlock and John said something along the lines of "I don't know what to say" (= common paraphrase for "I do know what to say but I'm too chicken/it wouldn't be appropriate"), which would support your argument that certain things "can't be said--because they are English and men."

miriel68 wrote:

I think this is a very interesting point we haven't discussed enough yet

Because we've discussed just about everything else possible, LOL!    But, yes, I would like to hear more opinions on this.

miriel68 wrote:

WHEN exactly did he decide to do it? He obviously wanted John to have his gun, but was he already preparing himself for this extreme eventuality?

Yes, I think he was.  If Sherlock could figure out 13 possible outcomes for what could happen when he was on the roof with Moriarty in TRF, then I think he could easily foresee all the possibilites during his encounter with CAM, including having to kill him.

miriel68 wrote:

I am not sure whether he took this decision as soon as he saw that there were no vaults.

 The reason I think that's when he decided is because there was a flicker of emotion on Sherlock's face at that moment; his eyes almost blink and I got the impression that he had just reached a difficult decision.

miriel68 wrote:

IMO it could be when he stayed behind for a moment, while John moved to the terrace with Magnussen. Before Magnussen began to flick John's face, however - at least this is my impression.

That is possible, though I think he'd already made up his mind.  But I agree with you that Sherlock had definitely decided on what he was going to do before CAM started flicking John's face becuase that is why he told John to just let CAM do it: Sherlock already knew that CAM was going to get his comeuppance and John would be avenged. 

Last edited by Sherli Bakerst (January 20, 2014 7:37 pm)

Yep.

And it was only on the terrace that CAM threatened to inform Mary's enemies. The moment Sherlock sees the empty room he knows that he must come up with another plan. But IMO the decision to shoot CAM comes later on the terrace. 

SusiGo wrote:

And it was only on the terrace that CAM threatened to inform Mary's enemies. The moment Sherlock sees the empty room he knows that he must come up with another plan. But IMO the decision to shoot CAM comes later on the terrace. 

And right there-- Mary's chickens will eventually come home to roost. And that puts John and her baby in grave danger. I fear that killing CAM may not close the door on that particular chapter of Mary's life. YIKES.

I've only just started reading this thread this morning and I didn't have the time to read all posts yet, so I apologize if I repeat something that has already been mentionend or explained. I'd just like to post some of my toughts about a few points that have been discussed here.

I'm torn wether Sherlock decided he had to kill CAM the moment when he realized that there were no vaults or later when CAM threatened to have Mary killed and was humiliating John. There are hints in his facial expression that he made that decision right after the vault scene and his refusal to let John know that he was working on a backup plan also hints that Sherlock already knew what he was going to do. He didn't tell John because he knew that John would never let him do that.

As far as the weapon is concerned, I think that CAM knew that he had the upper hand, he knew that Mycorft's people would already be on their way to Appledore and he was just a tad too sure that neither Sherlock nor John would ever dare to harm him knowing that Mycorft's people would arrive at Appledore anytime soon. That's why he didn't search them for weapons - Mycroft and his people were enough security to him.

And lastly, my thoughts on Sherlock killing Magnussen. First of all, self defence, even if it is for a third party, is not murder. Killing someone in self defence can be justyfied and that's what John did in "A Study in Pink". He shot the cabbie thinking he was posing an immediate threat to Sherlock's life (John just couldn't know that Sherlock was about to swallow the pill on free will), hence it was self defence for a third party. At least according to Swiss law, he wouldn't be found guilty of murder in that situation.

What Sherlock did to Magnussen was not classical self defence (for a third party), because the danger CAM posed for Mary's and other people's lives was not immediate enough for Sherlock's action to be considered self defence in the legal sense. However, in Swiss (and also German and probably most central European laws) law there is the so called "Notstand". I can't find an English equal to this, but it's basically saying that when your life or someone else's life is endangered by circumstances and the only way to overcome this danger is by taking someone elses life, you don't have to face punishment. The classic example is two people in the ice cold sea clutching to a piece of wood after their ship sunk. The only way to survive is to climb on that piece of wood, but there's only room for one of them there. So if one kills the other in that situation, he's not going to go to prison for that, althoug the other person didn't actively pose an immediate threat, hence it's not classical self defence.

Years ago there was a case of a wife who had been physically and mentally abused by her husband for years. Divorce wasn't an option for her because he threatend to stalk and kill her and would most likely have done it (given the harm he had done to her in the past). So one night she shot him with a gun while he was sleeping. The courts (not a jury in Switzerland, but legally trained people) didn't send her to prison and said that she had acted in a situation of "Notstand". It wasn't self defence, because her husband didn't pose an immediate threat to her while he was sleeping. But in the whole situation he was being a constant threat to her phyical and mental integrity and she just didn't see another way out but to kill him (sorry, it's hard to explain this legal stuff in English).

I think the situation in HLV was similar to this case. CAM was not posing an immediate threat to people's lifes, but he did threatten Mary's life by saying that he could anytime call people who would have her killed. Alive he would pose a constant threat to Mary's life, she, John and Sherlock would be puppets in his hands and that would not have changed if CAM was brought to justice. There's always a way to contact people, even from prison. So I think with a good defence lawyer, Sherlock would have had a shot at not facing prison or exile if he had informed courts for his motives behind the killing of CAM. But of course he couldn't do that because that would have meant giving away Mary's secret.

LightPurple wrote:

 
Years ago there was a case of a wife who had been physically and mentally abused by her husband for years. Divorce wasn't an option for her because he threatend to stalk and kill her and would most likely have done it (given the harm he had done to her in the past). So one night she shot him with a gun while he was sleeping. The courts (not a jury in Switzerland, but legally trained people) didn't send her to prison and said that she had acted in a situation of "Notstand". It wasn't self defence, because her husband didn't pose an immediate threat to her while he was sleeping. But in the whole situation he was being a constant threat to her phyical and mental integrity and she just didn't see another way out but to kill him (sorry, it's hard to explain this legal stuff in English).I think the situation in HLV was similar to this case. CAM was not posing an immediate threat to people's lifes, but he did threatten Mary's life by saying that he could anytime call people who would have her killed. Alive he would pose a constant threat to Mary's life, she, John and Sherlock would be puppets in his hands .

 Yes, I was thinking about this too: years ago a saw a court drama based on a similar dilemma (wife killing her sadistic husband and eventually verdicted "not guilty" by the jury). Although killing is never something to be taken lightly or pardoned completely, I was surprise to see that some people judged it as a pure and simple "murder" from Sherlock part and seem to think that M. is not posing a serious threat. We can only speculate when S. decided to kill M., based on BC performance (hmmm... couldn't think about more delicious kind of speculation). Actually, I would be very curious to know what was BC own idea about it and whether they discussed it with Moffat, because for sure he has his own concept about the whole thing. I still don't believe he took the decision immediately after having seen (not having seen) the vault: he obviously understood the implications immediately (what a contrast with a poor John), but his face came from a short flick of surprise to  realization and then to horror and grief. There is this interesting shot from behind, when we can see that he actually sways on his feet, as if he were to pass out. But when he comes to the terrace a short while after John, his body language seems to suggest that he is resigned to something. To what? Magnussens having won? I prefer to think that he already took his decision and now he is gathering all his courage to do what he has to do and what is - exactly - one of the most difficult decisions he has ever made. (He seems far more desperate and broken than in TRF and gosh, wasn't his torment heartbreaking back then?)