BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » How could Mary be connected with TRF?

sherlocked · January 18, 2014 4:06 pm

This might be shattering for those, who still believe, Mary has cleaned up her act after her identity change, and learned to know John as a part time nurse. Maybe, John did, but certainly not Mary!
So, we know, Mary is an assassin and a crack shot. Now, where do we have an overflow, a whole bunch of those guys? Yes, in TRF! When I looked at CAM's 'files' of Mary again, I noticed, that those pictures of Mary, he has stored in his mind palace, look a lot like the pictures, Mycroft gave John, when he informs him about all the killers, who moved into his neighborhood. Now, what has CAM got? A coloured and a black and white photo. Let's start with the coloured first: We see Mary with combed back hair, bare shoulders and a kind of brown strap on her right shoulder... and Cam's shuckling, how wicked she is. I decided to have a look at TRF again, and see, if I could find Mary in context with the assassin subplot (which never made a whole lot of sense to me, without further facts to come forward, to be honest).
When John arrives at 221b Bakerstreet, after he had his talk with Mycroft, the camera scans quite a few people, who are with John on the street at that moment: Is Mary amongst them? Yes, I think, she is... and in the same frame as John for about 2 seconds! Go to 0:31:09, and you see a woman crossing John's path, with blond bleached hair, size 12 (lol! that's Sherlock's measurement of Mary, not mine), bare shoulders, a nude tank top, and a bag with brown shoulder straps of the same colour and width as in CAM's picture! We see only her back and are thrown off the scent a bit by the fact, that she has a pony tail,but the hair colour is Mary's shade of blonde. I'm sure, it's her.... right with John at Baker street! In Cam's picture, it could well be a pony tail, instead of this combed back bob, she sports now. And before anyone says, she might just have been strolling around innocently, let's take a look at the black and white picture, CAM also has in his mind palace: It seems to be a snapshot of Mary (and another guy, in another picture) with wet hair, shorter and a bit darker this time. In the finalproblem.tumblr.com some poster pointed out, that AG.RA is written onto the document in CAM's mind palace in cyrrilic letters, which brings to mind the Russian assassin Ludmilla Djaschenko, whom John claims to have seen in the street at some time or other.
These observations have huge implications: Apparently Mary wasn't an afterthought of the writers, when they were pressed to invent a fiancee for John, but she was already on the scene in TRF, which means, we aren't done with that episode at all. It will have to get revisited in the 4th season.
And I think, I've spotted someone, who could be her, in a very compromising situation in TRF, which connects her to the fall itself, as a possible witness... or more.
to be continued....

Last edited by sherlocked (January 18, 2014 4:12 pm)

sherlocked · January 18, 2014 4:15 pm

I don't think, it's fanfic. I haven't made up those images. They are there for all to see. CAM's pictures of Mary are shown to us for a reason. It's not a question of, what we want to happen, but what the makers have decided to happen.
Since I'm doing this post with my tab, I can't attach the pictures and the scene from TRF.
But everybody can look it up and decide. Keep an open mind.

Last edited by sherlocked (January 18, 2014 4:18 pm)

sherlocked · January 18, 2014 5:08 pm

I know, I have suspected the writers, to possibly make it up, as they go along, but I also said, that we might see some things with different eyes after season 4. And if we really can place Mary in TRF, it shows, there IS apparently a continuing story arc. And I think, we can place her in that street scene in TRF, since same hair colour, combed back hair, bare shoulders, same figure, brown shoulder strap on the right shoulder, are just too many matching points for this being a coincidence, especially, since she's in the same frame as John.

silverblaze · January 18, 2014 7:17 pm

There's a picture of Ludmilla somewhere in TRF, her face, she's not Mary.

Ozma · January 19, 2014 12:13 pm

also, I might be wrong here, but I don't think Amanda was cast as Mary yet when they shot TRF? How could it have been her?

I just rewatched the part you are talking about, and that woman looks like just a passerby to me...

Ormond Sacker · January 21, 2014 3:50 pm

Went back and looked at TRF and found your woman in question. And I say for certain that it's not Amanda Abbington. The woman with the pony tail has a completely different body built, much broader hips, different legs. Well basically everything from the shoulders and down is not her. I'm sorry really, I love your theory .
As for whether or not Mary was one of the assasins we'll just have to wait and see.

Sigma · January 22, 2014 10:57 am

It is a very good theory, but until the next season or maybe the one after, that is all it will be, a theory. You could be correct but it could just be a coincidence and all we can do is wait and see

sj4iy · January 22, 2014 12:55 pm

We've already had one 'surprise reveal' of Mary's character. A second one would be repetitive.

I don't think there's any connection at all.

Willow · January 22, 2014 5:29 pm

sj4iy wrote:
We've already had one 'surprise reveal' of Mary's character. A second one would be repetitive.

I don't think there's any connection at all.

On the other hand, the 'surprise reveal' of Mary's character left a lot of questions unanswered, and her comments at the airfield are ambiguous:

'But he's dead. I mean, you told me he was dead, Moriarty'

can be read as her knowing he was dead, for reasons of her own, and then hastily switching it to John telling her that Moriarty was dead so that John does not suspect that she had any previous involvement with the master consulting criminal...

sj4iy · January 22, 2014 5:34 pm

Willow wrote:
sj4iy wrote:
We've already had one 'surprise reveal' of Mary's character. A second one would be repetitive.

I don't think there's any connection at all.
On the other hand, the 'surprise reveal' of Mary's character left a lot of questions unanswered, and her comments at the airfield are ambiguous:

'But he's dead. I mean, you told me he was dead, Moriarty'

can be read as her knowing he was dead, for reasons of her own, and then hastily switching it to John telling her that Moriarty was dead so that John does not suspect that she had any previous involvement with the master consulting criminal...

...or it could be read as "I thought this guy you told me about was dead," just like when Sherlock popped up.

Willow · January 22, 2014 5:41 pm

sj4iy wrote:
Willow wrote:
sj4iy wrote:
We've already had one 'surprise reveal' of Mary's character. A second one would be repetitive.

I don't think there's any connection at all.
On the other hand, the 'surprise reveal' of Mary's character left a lot of questions unanswered, and her comments at the airfield are ambiguous:

'But he's dead. I mean, you told me he was dead, Moriarty'

can be read as her knowing he was dead, for reasons of her own, and then hastily switching it to John telling her that Moriarty was dead so that John does not suspect that she had any previous involvement with the master consulting criminal...

...or it could be read as "I thought this guy you told me about was dead," just like when Sherlock popped up.

Indeed so, as I noted it is ambiguous. And ambiguity in Mofftiss is always deliberate...

zeratul · January 23, 2014 9:09 pm

Well she propably knew about that, because John propably told her how Sherlock "died" and why.

tobeornot221b · January 23, 2014 9:34 pm

I could possibly think of a TRF/HLV connection of Mary concerning stealing and aquiring new identities.
It was only the year date that stuck me. Don't have a proper theory yet.

Tinks · January 29, 2014 8:46 am

This is interesting because I have wondered whether Mary might've been originally intended to kill John if Sherlock hadn't "died", and later genuinely fell in love with him.
I've also wondered if some of Moriarty's cell survived and knew Sherlock would reappear eventually, so Mary got close to John with a view to killing Sherlock when he returned,
Maybe the second scenario is unlikely, although I do keep getting a hunch that Janine and Mary were working together in some way.
Plus, Mary did not confirm that any of Sherlock's assumptions about her were correct.
She said John wouldn't love her any more if he read her file.
I keep thinking that can only mean she was meant to kill him or Sherlock,

Last edited by Tinks (January 29, 2014 8:47 am)

mrshouse · January 29, 2014 8:54 am

But why killing john? After Sherlock sacrified himself in TRF it makes no sense to me...
Furthermore, if there is a line to be drawn between mycroft and mary, as in the pictures above, why did mycroft no background check on mary?
The falling between mary and john was already done when sherlock reappeared out of thin air for the both of them.

Ormond Sacker · January 29, 2014 10:06 am

Tinks wrote:
This is interesting because I have wondered whether Mary might've been originally intended to kill John if Sherlock hadn't "died", and later genuinely fell in love with him.

This is my head canon for Mary.

Tinks wrote:
I've also wondered if some of Moriarty's cell survived and knew Sherlock would reappear eventually, so Mary got close to John with a view to killing Sherlock when he returned,
Maybe the second scenario is unlikely, although I do keep getting a hunch that Janine and Mary were working together in some way.
Plus, Mary did not confirm that any of Sherlock's assumptions about her were correct.
She said John wouldn't love her any more if he read her file.
I keep thinking that can only mean she was meant to kill him or Sherlock,

And I woder if you're not correct or at least close to the truth. What Mary says when she hands over the memeory stick is that on it is "everything about who I was" not "what I was". That is, she doesn't think that is't her having been an assasin and whatnot that will make John stop loving her, but rather the person she was and possibly who she was connected to. Plus her background is plundered 100% from Moran so...

Tinks · January 29, 2014 10:16 am

Ormond Sacker wrote:
Tinks wrote:
This is interesting because I have wondered whether Mary might've been originally intended to kill John if Sherlock hadn't "died", and later genuinely fell in love with him.
This is my head canon for Mary.

Tinks wrote:
I've also wondered if some of Moriarty's cell survived and knew Sherlock would reappear eventually, so Mary got close to John with a view to killing Sherlock when he returned,
Maybe the second scenario is unlikely, although I
do keep getting a hunch that Janine and Mary were working together in some way.
Plus, Mary did not confirm that any of Sherlock's assumptions about her were correct.
She said John wouldn't love her any more if he read her file.
I keep thinking that can only mean she was meant to kill him or Sherlock,
And I woder if you're not correct or at least close to the truth. What Mary says when she hands over the memeory stick is that on it is "everything about who I was" not "what I was". That is, she doesn't think that is't her having been an assasin and whatnot that will make John stop loving her, but rather the person she was and
possibly who she was connected to. Plus her background is plundered 100% from Moran so...

Yes, I think we're thinking in a similar way, and it's one of the few ways I can explain why so many holes seem to exist at the moment in her story.
The only thing is, if it turns out she is there to kill Sherlock, I wonder if the actress would become a figure of hate for some sections of the show 's fans, and so the writers won't go down that road?

Ormond Sacker · January 29, 2014 10:25 am

Maybe she wouldn't, maybe she would. After all, Moriarty tried to kill Sherlock, last I checked that didn't really generate hate for either character nor actor.
I just hope Moffat and Gatiss holds to what they said about not letting fans unduely influence the show. I know we have some influence, after all they aren't writing in a vacuum and they can't help but run across all our mad theories, what we like and what we don't. I just don't want it to make them scarp an otherwise good story line because they fear that the fans will hate it. That would probably be the quickest way to kill the show.

Tinks · January 29, 2014 10:56 am

Ormond Sacker wrote:
Maybe she wouldn't, maybe she would. After all, Moriarty tried to kill Sherlock, last I checked that didn't really generate hate for either character nor actor.
I just hope Moffat and Gatiss holds to what they said about not letting fans unduely influence the show. I know we have some influence, after all they aren't writing in a vacuum and they can't help but run across all our mad theories, what we like and what we don't. I just don't want it to make them scarp an otherwise good story line because they fear that the fans will hate it. That would probably
be the quickest way to kill the show.

Absolutely agree.

Willow · January 29, 2014 8:50 pm

mrshouse wrote:
But why killing john? After Sherlock sacrified himself in TRF it makes no sense to me...
Furthermore, if there is a line to be drawn between mycroft and mary, as in the pictures above, why did mycroft no background check on mary?
The falling between mary and john was already done when sherlock reappeared out of thin air for the both of them.

We don't know that Mycroft didn't run a background check on Mary; I wrote about this on the AGRA thread, so I won't repeat it here, but Mycroft would not have been babysitting John in Sherlock's absence. He would check, but that doesn't mean that he would do anything about the information. He doesn't do rescuing damsels in distress, John being the damsel in this instance.

I agree that killing John is highly implausible; however, a consulting master criminal with a world wide network would undoubtedly have information about people prepared to murder for money. It would be exceedingly strange if he didn't; it may be that Mary was linked to Moriarty in that way, simply as a potential resource. The one thing I am sure of is that we are going to learn a lot more about Mary in S4