BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Sherlock's love for John

Willow · January 17, 2014 6:28 pm

shezza wrote:
Ah, dunno.

The way I see it, the moment she assumed Mary Morstan's identity, Mary relegated her whole past to the memory stick. She started an ordinary life, found a job as a part-time nurse, got an account on Twitter and had at least one other relationship before she met John, who, without Sherlock's influence, was a quite ordinary doctor in his late thirties. Things progress, their bond intensifies and at some point both of them realise that there's simply no one else who could replace the other, because at some instinctual level they both sense there's more than meets the eye behind their ordinary personas. Then John decides to propose and it's all going very normally, ordinarily, until Sherlock - tada - reappears.

Had Sherlock not returned, Mary's secret would have been safe - there was literally no reason for re-opening that stinky can of worms in front of John. You have a perfect life, a secret that could potentially ruin it and absolutely no reason for taking that risk apart from some dubious "ethic" obligation. She probably did wonder a lot of times if she should tell John, maybe even wish she could, but she was clearly not ready to risk losing everything that was dear to her, and can you blame her?

Then Sherlock returned and everything went to hell in a handbasket.

No; as Lil has pointed out on another thread, no-one can shoot that well without constantly practising so Mary must have been doing that throughout the years since she appropriated the identity of a dead child. She kept the gun, she must have spent a small fortune on ammunition, which renders her financial situation even more questionable, and she did the one thing which no sane person would do. She kept incriminating evidence about herself handily condensed on a memory stick.

I don't think she did. It makes much more sense if she got the memory stick from CAM just before she shot Sherlock.

Of course we are then left trying to understand why she should take it with her when she embarked on Kill Sherlock Round 2, but I suppose she might have been trying to find a safe place where John could not find it, and was trying to derive information about the person or persons responsible for the information on the memory stick in the first place.

In any event she would have been looking for the people up the chain as well as down; CAM got the information about her from one or more people, and he probably got it in digital form because not everybody has an excellent memory. That would explain the existence of the memory stick a great deal better than no explanation at all, which is what we have at the moment...

shezza · January 17, 2014 6:46 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Interesting. Do you think she decided to kill CAM the moment John was kidnapped? Or had he blackmailed her even earlier? I am still thinking about the exact moment she knew he was going to blackmail her and if she understood that Mycroft was his real target. Is Sherlock's return the trigger because now CAM sees his chance of leverage against Mycroft via Sherlock, John, and Mary?

Yeah, I think Sherlock's return was the trigger. Magnussen wanted Mycroft (i.e. the British government) under his thumb and Mycroft's pressure point is Sherlock. As long as Sherlock's dead Magnussen doesn't have any leverage against Mycroft - and then, surprise, Sherlock returns. Definitely an early Christmas gift for Magnussen. But, I think CAM also knows that Mycroft's not going to expose the secrets of the British government or the secrets of the MI6 just to save his little bro, he knows Mycroft's way too intelligent, inflexible and rigorous to be manipulated on a sentimental basis. So he goes one notch down the chain, down to Sherlock, the ex-junkie kinda-sociopathic consultive detective who isn't over the death of his childhood dog. That right there tells him that Sherlock's actually got a beating heart and that he can be manipulated. Amongst Sherlock's pressure points, the easiest and closest one is John and when Sherlock throws himself into a bonfire to save John, CAM knows that Sherlock will do absolutely anything for him.

Obviously Mary's got some past history with CAM. I think she started plotting CAM's assassination since the events in TEH because by TSoT she's best chums with his PA - just too coincidental. When she gets the text in TEH, that's the moment she knows that the normal cosy life she's worked so hard for is in peril.

shezza · January 17, 2014 7:00 pm

Mouse wrote:
Oh, if only that were true, that we could relegate parts of our past to memory sticks! Unfortunately, the truth always comes out, one way or another. Magnussen said a lot of people have it in for Mary, and unless I miss my guess that's going to factor in later. And one thing I've learned is that it's always, always better to be truthful than to lie to someone you love, because it always winds up biting you in the ass...it not sooner, than later, and later generally makes it much, much worse.

I think it's a safe bet that if Mary had been truthful with John, he would have been forviging. Even if she hadn't told him everything, but let him know there was more that she was ashamed of.

Well, obviously Mary thought she was done with her past, that there was no compelling reason to tell John about what she had done. And what she's done must be terrible, absolutely terrible, way worse than "simply" being a CIA assassin - I'm looking at that bit of CAM's dialogue, when he says she started freelancing. It's one thing to tell your fiancé you had a licence to kill sanctioned by the US government, it's quite another to tell him you killed people - maybe even innocent people - because you liked the money. Honestly, were I in her position, I don't know if I would have told the love of my life about my past job as an assassin.

I don't know if John would have been forgiving, maybe yes, maybe not. I think not even John knows, and that's why he doesn't look at the files in the memory stick. He wants to love Mary.

shezza · January 17, 2014 7:32 pm

Willow wrote:

No; as Lil has pointed out on another thread, no-one can shoot that well without constantly practising so Mary must have been doing that throughout the years since she appropriated the identity of a dead child. She kept the gun, she must have spent a small fortune on ammunition, which renders her financial situation even more questionable, and she did the one thing which no sane person would do. She kept incriminating evidence about herself handily condensed on a memory stick.

Well it's not like she managed some incredible feat of markmanship - she shot Sherlock aiming for a non-fatal spot and yet Sherlock technically did die, so maybe her skills were getting rusty after all.

In any case, it's possible that she did keep practicising - at a shooting range, perhaps? And I'm sure all those years as an assassin paid well (she's probably lied about that too). Plus, I'm no expert on guns or shooting, but I'm sure that if you spent about a decade developing your markmanship you'd still be pretty good shoot even after "retirement" or could "pick it up again" quite quickly.

I don't think she did. It makes much more sense if she got the memory stick from CAM just before she shot Sherlock.

Of course we are then left trying to understand why she should take it with her when she embarked on Kill Sherlock Round 2, but I suppose she might have been trying to find a safe place where John could not find it, and was trying to derive information about the person or persons responsible for the information on the memory stick in the first place.

In any event she would have been looking for the people up the chain as well as down; CAM got the information about her from one or more people, and he probably got it in digital form because not everybody has an excellent memory. That would explain the existence of the memory stick a great deal better than no explanation at all, which is what we have at the moment...

It's possible that she got the memory stick from CAM. Why would she take it with her? Mmm maybe she just thought the safest place on earth (her being a trained ex-assassin and all) would be right in her pocket. Or maybe it had some sort of sentimental value for her, strange as it may sound, who knows.

Willow · January 17, 2014 8:10 pm

shezza wrote:
Willow wrote:

No; as Lil has pointed out on another thread, no-one can shoot that well without constantly practising so Mary must have been doing that throughout the years since she appropriated the identity of a dead child. She kept the gun, she must have spent a small fortune on ammunition, which renders her financial situation even more questionable, and she did the one thing which no sane person would do. She kept incriminating evidence about herself handily condensed on a memory stick.
Well it's not like she managed some incredible feat of markmanship - she shot Sherlock aiming for a non-fatal spot and yet Sherlock technically did die, so maybe her skills were getting rusty after all.

In any case, it's possible that she did keep practicising - at a shooting range, perhaps? And I'm sure all those years as an assassin paid well (she's probably lied about that too). Plus, I'm no expert on guns or shooting, but I'm sure that if you spent about a decade developing your markmanship you'd still be pretty good shoot even after "retirement" or could "pick it up again" quite quickly.

I don't think she did. It makes much more sense if she got the memory stick from CAM just before she shot Sherlock.

Of course we are then left trying to understand why she should take it with her when she embarked on Kill Sherlock Round 2, but I suppose she might have been trying to find a safe place where John could not find it, and was trying to derive information about the person or persons responsible for the information on the memory stick in the first place.

In any event she would have been looking for the people up the chain as well as down; CAM got the information about her from one or more people, and he probably got it in digital form because not everybody has an excellent memory. That would explain the existence of the memory stick a great deal better than no explanation at all, which is what we have at the moment...
It's possible that she got the memory stick from CAM. Why would she take it with her? Mmm maybe she just thought the safest place on earth (her being a trained ex-assassin and all) would be right in her pocket. Or maybe it had some sort of sentimental value for her, strange as it may sound, who knows.

Aargh! the iPad is not designed for multiple nesting so I'll have to put it together.

The marksmanship point is where she tosses a coin into the air and puts a bullet through it. In order to be that good you have to practise regularly; it isn't like riding a bicycle. If she carried on practising regularly then she had not put her past behind her, as others have hypothesised; she is still behaving like a killer. And there is no happy ending available outside the realms of Mr and Mrs Smith; John may be an adrenaline junkie but he is not a hired killer and he isn't capable of being a hired killer.

Mary clearly is; I think Moffat was being truthful when he said that there had to be the big reveal scene because otherwise the entire show for the rest of the series would have consisted of Sherlock and John investigating cases, followed around by a homicidal nurse shooting anyone who conceivably might be a threat to them.

As for the memory stick I'm pleased that you agree it's likely origin. I still think the only reason she would not destroy it is because she was hoping that the internal evidence would lead her to the person or persons who had provided it to CAM, so she could kill them. Killing people is Mary's default setting, and she isn't going to stop now; there will always be someone she perceives to be a threat...

sherlocked · January 17, 2014 8:18 pm

Agree, Willow. I wrote on the other thread, that Mary might well turn out to be Sherlock's great brilliant (though not necessarily villainous) adversary in the next season, even, if they seem to toe the line together atm.

Last edited by sherlocked (January 17, 2014 8:19 pm)

shezza · January 17, 2014 8:26 pm

Willow wrote:
shezza wrote:
Willow wrote:

No; as Lil has pointed out on another thread, no-one can shoot that well without constantly practising so Mary must have been doing that throughout the years since she appropriated the identity of a dead child. She kept the gun, she must have spent a small fortune on ammunition, which renders her financial situation even more questionable, and she did the one thing which no sane person would do. She kept incriminating evidence about herself handily condensed on a memory stick.
Well it's not like she managed some incredible feat of markmanship - she shot Sherlock aiming for a non-fatal spot and yet Sherlock technically did die, so maybe her skills were getting rusty after all.

In any case, it's possible that she did keep practicising - at a shooting range, perhaps? And I'm sure all those years as an assassin paid well (she's probably lied about that too). Plus, I'm no expert on guns or shooting, but I'm sure that if you spent about a decade developing your markmanship you'd still be pretty good shoot even after "retirement" or could "pick it up again" quite quickly.

I don't think she did. It makes much more sense if she got the memory stick from CAM just before she shot Sherlock.

Of course we are then left trying to understand why she should take it with her when she embarked on Kill Sherlock Round 2, but I suppose she might have been trying to find a safe place where John could not find it, and was trying to derive information about the person or persons responsible for the information on the memory stick in the first place.

In any event she would have been looking for the people up the chain as well as down; CAM got the information about her from one or more people, and he probably got it in digital form because not everybody has an excellent memory. That would explain the existence of the memory stick a great deal better than no explanation at all, which is what we have at the moment...
It's possible that she got the memory stick from CAM. Why would she take it with her? Mmm maybe she just thought the safest place on earth (her being a trained ex-assassin and all) would be right in her pocket. Or maybe it had some sort of sentimental value for her, strange as it may sound, who knows.
Aargh! the iPad is not designed for multiple nesting so I'll have to put it together.

The marksmanship point is where she tosses a coin into the air and puts a bullet through it. In order to be that good you have to practise regularly; it isn't like riding a bicycle. If she carried on practising regularly then she had not put her past behind her, as others have hypothesised; she is still behaving like a killer. And there is no happy ending available outside the realms of Mr and Mrs Smith; John may be an adrenaline junkie but he is not a hired killer and he isn't capable of being a hired killer.

Ah totally forgot about that. Well like I said it's possible that she kept practicing at a shooting range - shooting could very well be a passion/addiction for her (a bit like Sherlock - he isn't an addict anymore but he keeps indulging from time to time). Plus if I were an ex assassin I'd always be on the lookout for people coming to get me, even if I felt pretty safe in my day to day life... I'd make sure I didn't completely lose my particular skill set.

Willow · January 17, 2014 8:55 pm

sherlocked wrote:
Agree, Willow. I wrote on the other thread, that Mary might well turn out to be Sherlock's great brilliant (though not necessarily villainous) adversary in the next season, even, if they seem to toe the line together atm.

Yes; once that plane turned back all bets were off.

If we assume, for the sake of argument, that Mary is who she appears to be, and has no connection with other villains, then I think that Mary could tolerate John's affection for Sherlock provided he was safely distanced from them; I am much less convinced that she could deal with them working together in a way that excludes her.

And we know already that Sherlock and John will be working together on Moriarty's apparent return, although in universe the people who do the security checks may not be happy with John's new status and want him to be excluded. I really cannot see the writers putting together stories which minimise John's role, and there is only so much screen time available; slotting her in as the adversary would be the functional alternative to killing her off, given that we can never go back to the happy mum living in suburban bliss.

But there is so much that we don't know about who she really is, and things like her relationship with Janine, that we can't be sure that she has no connection with the apparent return of Moriarty; this is, no doubt, completely intentional on the part of the writers

Willow · January 18, 2014 12:10 am

Swanpride wrote:
I see her shooting skills more as TV reality - John was invalided home, had his gun in his drawer for month and still managed to shoot the cabbie through two windows without hitting Sherlock. Now that he knows about her ability, they might do a shooting match against each other - if they find a place to do so. Remember, UK, technically the gun is illegal.

Mary obviously has no problems with John and Sherlock working together. She even encouraged it. I don't see why she should suddenly change her mind.

There is a considerable difference between not shooting for a month and not shooting for five years, just as there is a considerable difference between aiming at a static object like a man and aiming at a coin spinning through the air. The second one is a lot harder than the first.

As for possessing a gun I think it extends to more than 'technically illegal'; it is illegal, unless John has a permit, in which case he's fine. Obtaining a permit is reasonably easy for a retired army officer, there are shooting clubs full of retired military. But Mary has no chance of getting one; they do run checks and someone with no traceable history before 5 years ago would send alarm bells ringing in all the wrong places. Mary is obtaining the ammunition illegally, for obvious reasons; John has no such problems.

Mary was happy for John to tootle off with Sherlock because she was busy planning how to kill CAM; it's inconvenient to have one's fiancé around when you are setting up a murder. And as things turned out she was perfectly prepared to prevent it happening again by shooting Sherlock; that's a very decisive way of suggesting that the boys' outings are doomed. Once CAM is out of the way Mary probably does not want the inevitable publicity if John and Sherlock crack a huge case together; it would put her in the limelight so the friends and family of the people she killed could get to her...

Aytoun · January 18, 2014 10:10 pm

Willow wrote:
As for possessing a gun I think it extends to more than 'technically illegal'; it is illegal, unless John has a permit, in which case he's fine. Obtaining a permit is reasonably easy for a retired army officer, there are shooting clubs full of retired military. But Mary has no chance of getting one; they do run checks and someone with no traceable history before 5 years ago would send alarm bells ringing in all the wrong places. Mary is obtaining the ammunition illegally, for obvious reasons; John has no such problems.

John's gun may be illegal too. There was a case of an ex-solider suffering from PTSD here in the UK who was sentanced to eighteen months in prison for keeping his army gun. I think the sentance was reduced after a public outcry.

I agree with the rest of what you say about Mary though.

As an aside there was an article in The Metro newspaper http://metro.co.uk/2014/01/17/sherlock-series-3-the-final-post-mortem-4266708/ which sums up the third series as Sherlock now needs John more than John needs him. Maybe that's why Sherlock is willing to be so accepting of Mary, even after she shot him?

silverblaze · January 18, 2014 10:53 pm

Willow wrote:
Swanpride wrote:
I see her shooting skills more as TV reality - John was invalided home, had his gun in his drawer for month and still managed to shoot the cabbie through two windows without hitting Sherlock. Now that he knows about her ability, they might do a shooting match against each other - if they find a place to do so. Remember, UK, technically the gun is illegal.

Mary obviously has no problems with John and Sherlock working together. She even encouraged it. I don't see why she should suddenly change her mind.
There is a considerable difference between not shooting for a month and not shooting for five years, just as there is a considerable difference between aiming at a static object like a man and aiming at a coin spinning through the air. The second one is a lot harder than the first.

It's still fiction, I don't think they take that kind of detail into account. If you want to nitpick on the things that aren't like reality in the show, you've got way bigger fish to fry.

Ozma · January 19, 2014 11:54 am

Honestly? I hope and pray that in the new series they give John some time to catch up with everything, because in the last one he hasn't just missed a few details, he's missed HUGE points and he didn't even have the time to try and figure them out that something even BIGGER came up every time!

As for the plane scene - as well as not still having processed everything, I think we need to consider that after watching Sherlock shoot Magnussen John knew there was going to be terrible consequences, and therefore he probably saw Sherlock's departure/punishment as inevitable. Also, some time has passed between the shooting and the airport scene ( a few days?), so John might have had time to learn about the sentence and possibly freak out then? Meaning that by the time they are at the airport he has already kind of accepted there is no alternative, and is trying to remain stoic?

KeepersPrice · January 19, 2014 1:55 pm

Ozma wrote:
As for the plane scene - as well as not still having processed everything, I think we need to consider that after watching Sherlock shoot Magnussen John knew there was going to be terrible consequences, and therefore he probably saw Sherlock's departure/punishment as inevitable. Also, some time has passed between the shooting and the airport scene ( a few days?), so John might have had time to learn about the sentence and possibly freak out then? Meaning that by the time they are at the airport he has already kind of accepted there is no alternative, and is trying to remain stoic?

I just watched HLV again last night and I can pretty much agree with this, Ozma. More and more I'm coming to terms with this scene, which upon viewings 1 and 2 just didn't sit quite right with me. Something seemed missing. I'm much better with it now except for one thing. I just want some kind of reaction from John when Sherlock says that this is likely the last time they will ever see each other. There should have been something at that moment - a shocked flicker in his eyes, some fleeting look of pain or stunned emotion on John's face - just something. I keep looking but never see anything that quite satisfies that emotional moment for me. I'm not expecting hugs or tears or anything like that - maybe just some kind of acknowledgment that John knows how much Sherlock has sacrificed for him. I know he does know; but without being maudlin, I would have liked a bit more expression of it. That's all.

lil · January 19, 2014 2:40 pm

silverblaze wrote:
Willow wrote:
Swanpride wrote:
I see her shooting skills more as TV reality - John was invalided home, had his gun in his drawer for month and still managed to shoot the cabbie through two windows without hitting Sherlock. Now that he knows about her ability, they might do a shooting match against each other - if they find a place to do so. Remember, UK, technically the gun is illegal.

Mary obviously has no problems with John and Sherlock working together. She even encouraged it. I don't see why she should suddenly change her mind.
There is a considerable difference between not shooting for a month and not shooting for five years, just as there is a considerable difference between aiming at a static object like a man and aiming at a coin spinning through the air. The second one is a lot harder than the first.

It's still fiction, I don't think they take that kind of detail into account. If you want to nitpick on the things that aren't like reality in the show, you've got way bigger fish to fry.

On this the shooting thing is odd wierdly I agree both sides.

Thing is this is Sherlock ..and one of his most famous quotations both in canon and in this series is the " Eliminate the impossible....whatever remains must be..the truth.."

And here we have TWO impossible shots in regard to the facts as known

So..idk I would be sad to have to watch Sherlock and not look for clues..or try to work things out because... it's just tv.
So it is a conundrum.

Either More to this than meets the eye...or in future no point clueing we just making tv you know....

Edit:sorry I see thread wandered off topic..but can't move it now Bberry user...

Last edited by lil (January 19, 2014 2:51 pm)

Willow · January 19, 2014 3:33 pm

lil wrote:
silverblaze wrote:
Willow wrote:
There is a considerable difference between not shooting for a month and not shooting for five years, just as there is a considerable difference between aiming at a static object like a man and aiming at a coin spinning through the air. The second one is a lot harder than the first.

It's still fiction, I don't think they take that kind of detail into account. If you want to nitpick on the things that aren't like reality in the show, you've got way bigger fish to fry.

On this the shooting thing is odd wierdly I agree both sides.

Thing is this is Sherlock ..and one of his most famous quotations both in canon and in this series is the " Eliminate the impossible....whatever remains must be..the truth.."

And here we have TWO impossible shots in regard to the facts as known

So..idk I would be sad to have to watch Sherlock and not look for clues..or try to work things out because... it's just tv.
So it is a conundrum.

Either More to this than meets the eye...or in future no point clueing we just making tv you know....

Edit:sorry I see thread wandered off topic..but can't move it now Bberry user...

Well, I doubt we can discuss Sherlock's love for John without considering the two shootings, since they play such an important part in their relationship; we are looking for clues so we are still on topic

And of course it really does make a difference to the future plotlines if Mary has been keeping up with her professional skills; if she's been assiduously practising her shooting and her climbing, not to mention retaining her ninja outfits, it suggests that she didn't leave her old life behind her when she took the identity of a dead child five years ago. That makes her very dangerous indeed, all the more so since she still apparently believes that killing people in general, and people who may conceivably threaten her or someone she cares about in particular, is perfectly OK; I think that the only possible explanation for Sherlock apparently not being willing to accept that she's a nut job who needs to be put away, or put down, for the safety of everyone, is because John loves her.

And Sherlock has hurt John in a way that he simply did not recognise at the time, but now does; Sherlock has taken a bullet in his chest, but metaphorically, at least, he's trying to prevent someone putting another bullet through John's heart.

Incidentally, I very much doubt that the show would have struck a chord with so many viewers were it not for the puzzle aspects; those were deliberately played up on the website and give a lot of people pleasure...

lil · January 19, 2014 3:52 pm

Well it is possible I suppose that Mary made up some story, reason that she learnt to shoot and she and John do go practice at a range..but very difficult with background checks etc..or Mary could be sneaking off to the countryside to practice in secret.
Either way it points to a lot of lies and sneaking about behind Johns back.

Perhaps Sherlock telling John his full name at the airport was a way of contast..Sherlock s total disclosure , and truth/trust with John.

I am in agreement with the people who feel a little let down by John this series.
OK..he was angry and hurt at the fake death , we got it!
But where was the joy once the anger passed., I for one know I would be overjoyed if one of my deceased loved ones returned to me., well once over the shock!

I find it hard to think John did not suspect or hope for it a little like Anderson..

Maybe that is why he tried to move on so hard and so blindly.

Ultimately I do not care if it is romance or bromance as long as it is SH/JW but it must be equal and reciprical I think.
ATM seems a little unbalanced and unrequited.
I wouldnt mind a Mary/Wife character about if she did not come between them, but it seems she has.

Last edited by lil (January 19, 2014 3:53 pm)

besleybean · January 19, 2014 3:55 pm

On the contrary, I think she's brought them together.

Mattlocked · January 19, 2014 4:33 pm

Right after rewatching HLV today I asked hubby: "What do you think, did John react to "cool" at the end?"
Hubby, confused: "Cool? What do you mean, 'too cool'?"
Me: "Well, we were discussing, after all what Sherlock did for John, at least a 'Thank you for everything' could have been nice, you know."
Hubby: "Ah, you girls, right? Well, tell your girls, this goodbye was perfectly okay. I mean, they were shaking hands!!?" ^^
Me: "Okay, so it's a "men thing". Cowboys and that."
Hubby: "Yes. You could say so."

So, now I told you girls.

Last edited by Mattlocked (January 19, 2014 4:36 pm)

besleybean · January 19, 2014 4:37 pm

Just as we suspected.

lil · January 19, 2014 5:01 pm

besleybean wrote:
On the contrary, I think she's brought them together.

I think the lines I like him...I'l talk him around are the bait for exactly theese thoughts.
She/they take advantage of the immediate aftermath of Johns anger.

But I do not think John would not eventually have understood and made up with Sherlock given time.Thats obvious.

Further they are suspicious because shouldn't she want to stay well away from Sherlock /Mycroft at this point?
Getting close to SH is not clever for someone with secrets.