BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary

silverblaze · January 16, 2014 8:35 pm

Swanpride wrote:
Just because she believes that John wouldn't understand her actions it doesn't mean that he really wouldn't. She also believed that it would destroy John to know that she is just a facade...and it didn't.

That.

I believe she is wrong about what John would understand.

stoertebeker · January 16, 2014 10:04 pm

@silver: I am not sure about the heroic but otherwise I agree with you. And as long as we don't really know what she did in her past and who she perhaps killed I try not to judge her.

stoertebeker · January 16, 2014 10:07 pm

Swanpride wrote:
Just because she believes that John wouldn't understand her actions it doesn't mean that he really wouldn't. She also believed that it would destroy John to know that she is just a facade...and it didn't.

Yeah, I think it's fairly easy to underestimate John, so I suppose she did. Although as his wife she should know him better.

silverblaze · January 16, 2014 10:11 pm

I would be really surprised if Moftiss made her unlikable in the next series.

Though Moftiss sometimes do that. Surprise.

Willow · January 16, 2014 10:33 pm

silverblaze wrote:
Swanpride wrote:
Just because she believes that John wouldn't understand her actions it doesn't mean that he really wouldn't. She also believed that it would destroy John to know that she is just a facade...and it didn't.
That.

I believe she is wrong about what John would understand.

That is not the same as claiming that Mary's backstory is 'absolutely heroic'. By definition, the use of the term absolutely means that there is no margin for doubt; you cannot then rationally say that whilst it's absolutely heroic a trained soldier would not understand that it was absolutely heroic.

I really don't understand why people want to turn Mary into a heroic figure, unless it's because they don't want to accept that she is what she says she is. She is prepared to kill people who get in her way because what she wants is the only thing that matters to her; she says that herself and there is nothing in her actions to make us doubt it.

She used her wedding to John as an opportunity to schmooze with CAM's secretary; what sort of person uses their own wedding to set up access to murdering someone?

lil · January 17, 2014 1:27 am

There's an interesting saving each other circle going on too..
Sherlock saves John , John saves Sherlock..then TRF , enter Mary who saves John who then saves Sherlock (not shooting to kill), and then Sherlock saves Mary.....jeeez
Sherlock with John we see the relationship go from logical ...to logical and emotional by the TRF. Sherlock with Mary is the same , he doesn't like/dislike her at first , she is clever and interesting, but by the end of HLV it is again both i think, his emotions for John tie him emotionally to Mary .
He shoots Magnusson both cos it's the logical and emotional thing to do.

Sherlock can forgive Mary because he relates to turning off the emotions to get the job done, thats what he does. He can be unemotional about it.
The Sherlock Mary tie is more logical/sensical , but both of their ties to John are all about emotions.
John has much more trouble forgiving Mary because he is emotional about it , in the end he doesn't seem to face it , burns it in the fire and moves on.

I think ultimately John will have to face what he burnt in the fire , and while that looks dodgy for Mary and John in the future. It won't effect the Sherlock ties.
To get what we want....
The kid is looked after by a bad a mother.
John is free to go adventuring with Sherlock.
Maybe as this is a modernised version , and to get out of unhappy/not working marriage s we could get a divorce in the future, wasn't an option for Doyle but is now maybe.
I don't like Mary personally , but I don't want to see an overly sentimental melodramatic death scene/episode.
Then they can all do as Sherlock does...logical sensible thing.

Last edited by lil (January 17, 2014 1:35 am)

lil · January 17, 2014 2:05 am

Swanpride wrote:
Who says that Mary would be a bad mother?

Not me...I say bad a.., as in bad A.

Can i say bamf?:-)

Last edited by lil (January 17, 2014 2:06 am)

sirlockofthesher · January 17, 2014 3:53 am

I think Sherlock respect's Mary's abilities. In the plot of the story regarding Mary trying to kill CAM. There are 4 options she can take when she has the gun pointed at CAM:

1. Mary can take out both CAM and Sherlock. Can't kill Sherlock without hurting John.
2. She can't just take out CAM- John becomes a suspect.
3. She can't hit CAM and let Sherlock walk free to tell John (giving more power to CAM over Sherlock, John, and Mary). CAM would see weakness and vulnerability in her inaction.

Please note it is the 4th option that allows Mary to almost distract CAM from thinking she can be used against SHERLOCK. That is why CAM is STILL MANEUVERING to get ahold of something over Mycroft. Mary "Killing" Sherlock- breaks the chain of pressure points.

4th option-slide a bullet in right below the lung and call 911. CAM realizes just what kind of naughty girl she is-what she will do if pressed. i.e. kill even her husband's best friend.

As Sherlock says,"It was surgery" Not only in where Mary placed the bullet but how she broke a chain of pressure points. Mary would just kill Sherlock if it meant John was going to be used-hence the attempted murder. She had to make it close so CAM would buy into this. Mary is clever.

Now as for how this works for the trio of the relationship. You see how now Sherlock can forgive her. She in essence tried to remove John from being used to hurt Sherlock. Sherlock recognizes her attempt and salutes it.

NotYourHousekeeperDear · January 17, 2014 4:25 am

I think Sherlock and Mary's relationship is not as it seems. I think Sherlock must know by now exactly who Mary is, and most likely has read the contents of the memory stick. I have doubts about the 'Mary called the ambulance and deliberately only shot me to wound me not kill me scenario' Sherlock told John. I think Sherlock is deliberately manipulating things to get John to stay with Mary. I am not sure why this is, perhaps to protect John somehow ?
I think the handshake scene before Sherlock gets on the plane is telling. He asks for a private moment with John! without Mary. if it was a true trio, why would he do this? I am not convinced that Sherlock's apparent fondness for Mary is real. We know Sherlock is very capable of maintaining a facade in a relationship (look at poor Janine) I am not sure of his motives here, but am convinced the Sherlock Mary relationship is not a genuine one.

Aytoun · January 17, 2014 9:53 am

NotYourHousekeeperDear wrote:
I think Sherlock and Mary's relationship is not as it seems. I think Sherlock must know by now exactly who Mary is, and most likely has read the contents of the memory stick. I have doubts about the 'Mary called the ambulance and deliberately only shot me to wound me not kill me scenario' Sherlock told John. I think Sherlock is deliberately manipulating things to get John to stay with Mary. I am not sure why this is, perhaps to protect John somehow ?
I think the handshake scene before Sherlock gets on the plane is telling. He asks for a private moment with John! without Mary. if it was a true trio, why would he do this? I am not convinced that Sherlock's apparent fondness for Mary is real. We know Sherlock is very capable of maintaining a facade in a relationship (look at poor Janine) I am not sure of his motives here, but am convinced the Sherlock Mary relationship is not a genuine one.

I almost hope you're right about this because no matter how many explanations I read (and some of them are excellent) Sherlock forgiving and trusting Mary just doesn't feel right to me. Nothing to do with Johnlock either, it just feels like a very odd reaction to someone who inflicted a very serious injury on you. Sherlock may call it surgery, but it nearly killed him. To say nothing of the trauma and phyisical pain, or of the anguish it must have caused everyone who cared about him. And he forgives her? I'm sorry, but that just doesn't work for me.

Last edited by Aytoun (January 17, 2014 9:55 am)

Marva · January 17, 2014 9:58 am

Aytoun wrote:
NotYourHousekeeperDear wrote:
I think Sherlock and Mary's relationship is not as it seems. I think Sherlock must know by now exactly who Mary is, and most likely has read the contents of the memory stick. I have doubts about the 'Mary called the ambulance and deliberately only shot me to wound me not kill me scenario' Sherlock told John. I think Sherlock is deliberately manipulating things to get John to stay with Mary. I am not sure why this is, perhaps to protect John somehow ?
I think the handshake scene before Sherlock gets on the plane is telling. He asks for a private moment with John! without Mary. if it was a true trio, why would he do this? I am not convinced that Sherlock's apparent fondness for Mary is real. We know Sherlock is very capable of maintaining a facade in a relationship (look at poor Janine) I am not sure of his motives here, but am convinced the Sherlock Mary relationship is not a genuine one.
I almost hope you're right about this because no matter how many explanations I read (and some of them are excellent) Sherlock forgiving and trusting Mary just doesn't feel right to me. Nothing to do with Johnlock either, it just feels like a very odd reaction to someone who inflicted a very serious injury on you. Sherlock may call it surgery, but it nearly killed him. To say nothing of the trauma and phyisical pain, or of the anguish it must have caused everyone who cared about him. And he forgives her? I'm sorry, but that just doesn't work for me.

I have the same feeling.

And it would make perfect since from Mofftiss' point of view, too: giving as a false sense of security that everything is "alright" now, everybody forgave everybody, everybody is everybody's best friend etc., only to shatter that illusion in the next series.

SolarSystem · January 17, 2014 1:16 pm

Willow wrote:
I really don't understand why people want to turn Mary into a heroic figure, unless it's because they don't want to accept that she is what she says she is. She is prepared to kill people who get in her way because what she wants is the only thing that matters to her; she says that herself and there is nothing in her actions to make us doubt it.

I agree. Let's stick to the facts, shall we? So far we have nothing to go on to assume that what she did in her past was heroic. Quite the opposite, if we believe her words - and why shouldn't we? She's convinced that John will not love her anymore once he knows about her past.

About that circle of saving each other: to complete this circle I would say that Mary would have to save someone more 'actively' than she did so far (and let's not forget that she shot Sherlock...). Which could mean that in S4 she will save John or/and Sherlock and who knows, maybe that will be a situation which will turn out deadly to her. I can't imagine that Moftiss will keep her forever, and IMO this could be a very 'positive' way for her to go.

stoertebeker · January 17, 2014 1:31 pm

I would appriciate that but I am not sure that will happen. I listened to the Empire Podcast interview with Moftiss yesterday. It seems they are very fond about the character Mary and also proud about the story twist they did with her. So it might be possible that she'll stay at the series for longer. On the other hand with Moftiss you'll never know.

Last edited by stoertebeker (January 17, 2014 6:07 pm)

SolarSystem · January 17, 2014 1:47 pm

stoertebeker wrote:
It seems they are very fond about the character May and also proud about the story twist they did with her.

Now, that "story twist" makes me kind of laugh. If I remember correctly, most of us suspected from very early on that something about her is off and that she might even turn out to be a "bad girl". I certainly didn't see it coming in all detail, but nevertheless I wasn't really surprised when the person who threatened CAM in HLV turned out to be Mary.
Anyway, I'm not surprised they are very fond of her as a character. And it'll certainly be interesting to see what they will do with her in S4 - with her and the baby. Something has to happen, because to be honest I just can't see a baby in the show.

Willow · January 17, 2014 2:45 pm

SolarSystem wrote:
stoertebeker wrote:
It seems they are very fond about the character May and also proud about the story twist they did with her.
Now, that "story twist" makes me kind of laugh. If I remember correctly, most of us suspected from very early on that something about her is off and that she might even turn out to be a "bad girl". I certainly didn't see it coming in all detail, but nevertheless I wasn't really surprised when the person who threatened CAM in HLV turned out to be Mary.
Anyway, I'm not surprised they are very fond of her as a character. And it'll certainly be interesting to see what they will do with her in S4 - with her and the baby. Something has to happen, because to be honest I just can't see a baby in the show.

Yes, not exactly a huge surprise about Mary but the character provided wonderful opportunities for Moftiss to write melodramatic dialogue, which they love doing; that was incredibly useful because Moriarty, melodramatic supremo of this or any other century, was dead. Or at least officially dead.

So I can certainly see why they are fond of the character; now, however, she presents problems. You can't have two characters competing for the title of best drama queen in the galaxy, and you cannot distract attention from Sherlock, who is, after all, the hero who is going to get us out from under whatever hideous plots Moftiss have devised.

I certainly expect to see a lot of Watson, not only because it's integral to the canon but also because the actor is not going to take a role which substantially diminishes his importance; Martin Freeman has his career to think about. So Mary is going to have to go, in one way or another; I can't see Moftiss dispatching her to suburban bliss because they don't do that sort of thing. It really would be boring, unlike scaling skyscrapers to climb in through non-existent windows in order to not shoot CAM.

So, suburban bliss is out which leaves us, to be fair, with quite a large field...

SusiGo · January 17, 2014 3:21 pm

And we still do not know much about her - what with the "guardian" thing? The allusion to her family in the wedding message?

Ormond Sacker · January 17, 2014 3:22 pm

I fell over this on tumblr. Thought it would lend an interesting perspective. Plus it gives some different answers to part of Mary's backstory that's be bothering me.

SusiGo · January 17, 2014 3:31 pm

Thanks for the link, Ormond, this is quite intriguing and indeed makes a lot of sense.

Willow · January 17, 2014 3:48 pm

Swanpride wrote:
I see a lot of potential in her character...for example I can totally see Mary helping the two to break in somewhere and later in, when Lestrade turns up with "descriptions" of the two or blurry video footage, I can totally see her lying about them having been with her the whole evening. I mean, I know she has to die eventually (or vanish, or whatever)...but there is also so much they can do with her in the meantime.

But if she's helping them to break in somewhere there would be 3 descriptions or 3 blurry figures on the video; she would end up having to tell Lestrade that the blonde one definitely wasn't her, which probably wouldn't work very well when it comes to establishing an alibi. And unless they propose to leave the baby by itself they would have to have a babysitter, which completely destroys any opportunity for a cover up.

And we inevitably come back to the fact that whatever she can do, Sherlock can do better. She's clever, but Sherlock is genius level. She is manipulative- for example her brief conversation with Holmes senior is designed to position herself as 'the sane one' in the next generation- but both Sherlock and Mycroft do that so much better as well...

Willow · January 17, 2014 4:30 pm

Swanpride wrote:
Who says that she comes with them? She makes the plan and then organizes the alibi. Perhaps she even ensures that there are other witnesses who believe that Sherlock and John were there the whole evening.

But any plan that Sherlock makes will be better than Mary's. Mary is clever. Sherlock is a genius. There is a difference between the two.

You also seem to overlook the fact that Conan Doyle has already created the one person who was more intelligent than Sherlock; his brother Mycroft.

If Sherlock can't think of a plan then he always has his elder brother to fall back on; there is absolutely no way in which Mycroft would allow his own security to be jeopardised by Mary Watson. And it would jeopardise his security to have his brother's alibi depending on a known, probably foreign, agent who may or may not have retired, who cannot even go into court to give evidence because she is a fake.

It really doesn't make any sense...