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January 16, 2014 3:05 pm  #21


Re: Flaws In Theory #3

I agree Bruce Cook, Sherlock is messing with anderson, we don't know how he did... I'm not sure we ever will because John doesn't care how, he just cares why...and if course if M is STILL ALIVE (and I'm not convinced of that) he would have seen the whole jump and the blue bag etc... so all pointless..

 

January 16, 2014 3:15 pm  #22


Re: Flaws In Theory #3

...or how about this... the whole of series 3 is a "life on mars" type event.  Sherlock is in a coma in Barts after the fall.

 

January 16, 2014 3:41 pm  #23


Re: Flaws In Theory #3

kittykat wrote:

Sherlock calls Anderson "Phillip", but in the Casebook there's a forensics report of the cab driver Jeff Hope, filled out by S. Anderson...?

That was the other forensics guy, Salvatore. Common mistake, they get mixed up all the time. http://cdn.boardhost.com/emoticons/tongue.png


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January 16, 2014 6:36 pm  #24


Re: Flaws In Theory #3

I think it is better not to nickpick, because there is no satisfying explanation. I am glad they muddied the waters rather than offer a clear (and hole-ridded) explanation: this way I can just accept "the magic trick" and it doesn't ruin TRF for me (although now is the menace of Moriarty resurrection, sigh). IF the things went in the way S. described them to Anderson the whole thing wouldn't have sense, anyway, for a simple reason:- the street was closed like a stage, only S. people were there.- Mycroft took care of Moriarty's sniperstherefore:WHY to jump from the roof at all? Only to fool Watson? Between pulling such a dangerous stunt (don't try to convince me it is NOT dangerous to jump from the roof of 5 stories building) and convincing Watson that he must not say a word about S. faking his death, what was a better option?  So I am going for the mystical "I am indestructible" at the end of the episode.

 

January 16, 2014 6:41 pm  #25


Re: Flaws In Theory #3

Well he obviously isn't indestructible, as we all very nearly found out in HLV.
But I was never that interested in the Resolution of the Fall, anyway.
TEH remains my least fave of the series 3, but I'm prepared to take it as it is.


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January 16, 2014 8:10 pm  #26


Re: Flaws In Theory #3

I started thinking about the Anderson scene and the thing that came through to me was that the camera is on John in the Tube Car it flashes White we get the Sherlock explains scene then it flashes white again and we're back in the Tube Car where Sherlock starts laughing. that to me says the entire sequence is how John is imagining what Sherlock would say if he wanted to explain it. and Anderson is John's mind saying there's no way that of all the people Sherlock would tell the last person to hear the truth would be Anderson (he'd have to get it through the grapevine not from the horse's mouth!)


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January 16, 2014 8:14 pm  #27


Re: Flaws In Theory #3

Does John even know about Anderson's fan club?


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January 16, 2014 8:26 pm  #28


Re: Flaws In Theory #3

I'm sure Lestrade told him about it at one point or another Anderson was always bugging Lestrade about his theories and Anderson's being kicked off the force for his obsessions would have reached john through lestrade or the evening news even.


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January 16, 2014 8:32 pm  #29


Re: Flaws In Theory #3

I don't know if it was in the news...
I did wonder about Lestrade, but would he try and spare John from that?


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January 16, 2014 8:42 pm  #30


Re: Flaws In Theory #3

Before Sherlock came back probably but after his return was announced I'm sure Lestrade might have dropped by (off-camera) and told John some of it. (plus there were some cutaways in the reunion including them going tfrom one resturaunt to another so Sherlock himself might have already been aware of The Empty Hearse)


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January 16, 2014 9:15 pm  #31


Re: Flaws In Theory #3

I honestly believe that the writers gave us Theory #3 with the following options in mind:

1) If the fanbase overall buys it, that's it. That's really what happened. You have your resolution.

2) If the fanbase says, "No way!" and is dissatisfied, then the writers can come back, grinning sheepishly and say, "Fooled you! We weren't being serious about that theory either, and you'll just have to figure out on your own what really happened, 'cause we're not telling."

Not that I blame them. In fact, in kinda like having a little flexibility in the plotline. That makes it more canon-like to me (which, collectively, can never be fully harmonised), and adds a little mystery to it all.

I do think the episode suffered by focusing so much on the various "theories" and such. I spent most of the episode waiting for "it" to happen--whatever that "it" was supposed to be.


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January 16, 2014 11:03 pm  #32


Re: Flaws In Theory #3

Tantalus wrote:

I honestly believe that the writers gave us Theory #3 with the following options in mind:

... If the fanbase says, "No way!" and is dissatisfied, then the writers can come back, grinning sheepishly and say, "Fooled you! We weren't being serious about that theory either, and you'll just have to figure out on your own what really happened, 'cause we're not telling."

Not that I blame them. In fact, in kinda like having a little flexibility in the plotline. That makes it more canon-like to me (which, collectively, can never be fully harmonised), and adds a little mystery to it all.

lol, an interesting point! Indeed, Sir ACD was known to be quite flexible in his storylines, too..

 

January 18, 2014 8:28 pm  #33


Re: Flaws In Theory #3

I agree Tantalus. I think it caused a lack of focus in the episode which led to that unresolved feeling.


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January 19, 2014 2:29 pm  #34


Re: Flaws In Theory #3

Sherlock would probably say: Only lies have detail.
It's too elaborate, to complicated to work. The timing wouldn't work IMO. And there were no clues that hint towards a blue airbag.
To find the Sherlock-look-a-like in time and arrange something with this fake body is not practically.
This whole theory is just a combination of no-goes.

 

January 19, 2014 3:35 pm  #35


Re: Flaws In Theory #3

~~"Ah! my dear Watson, there we come into those realms of conjecture, where the most logical mind may be at fault. Each may form his own hypothesis upon the present evidence, and yours is as likely to be correct as mine."


Holmes in The Empty House- Doyle

 

January 21, 2014 5:24 pm  #36


Re: Flaws In Theory #3

Well, for anyone that has seen the post-episode airing on PBS of TEH, I'd say we have a final answer:

In an interview (I assume for PBS), the creators pretty much acknowledge that Theory #3 is just that--a theory, but not necessarily what really happened. Even Jonathan Aris says in an interview that, basically, we' be naive to believe the version that Sherlock told Anderson.


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January 25, 2014 2:26 pm  #37


Re: Flaws In Theory #3

The corpse wasn't just to fool John for half a second. It was to be used in all future deceptions (death records, etc.) Molly had to manipulate some records to get the dead guy out of the way, but surely she couldn't have faked records enough to convince the nation that Sherlock was dead without a body that looked like his.

 

January 27, 2014 9:08 pm  #38


Re: Flaws In Theory #3

haseoke39 wrote:

The corpse wasn't just to fool John for half a second. It was to be used in all future deceptions (death records, etc.) Molly had to manipulate some records to get the dead guy out of the way, but surely she couldn't have faked records enough to convince the nation that Sherlock was dead without a body that looked like his.

Hmmm.  That's a puzzling assertion. I'm pretty sure John F. Kennedy is dead, but Wikipedia states that "Jacqueline Kennedy declared that the casket would be kept closed for the duration of the viewing and funeral."

Therefore, I contend that the next-of-kin (Mycroft and his parents) could simply order the coffin which supposedly contained Sherlock's body be kept closed.  I'm sure none of us thinks the funeral was held with an open casket which displayed a dead look-alike, right?  Of course not. So, a few hundred pounds of rocks would give the coffin the right weight.  It's as simple as that.
 
Remember, Mycroft arranged for a 747 to be filled with dead bodies to thwart a terrorist plan to blow up the aircraft in flight.  If Mycroft can have a plane filled with dead bodies, he wouldn't break a sweat arranging to have a rock-filled coffin buried in his brother's grave.

As for the alleged Sherlock look-alike -- he never existed.  That was just part of the BS which Sherlock told Anderson -- along with a big blue airbag, a good sniper to shoot the bad sniper (in a stairwell, with a scope), a make-up artist to create a fake facial wound (on a face smeared with blood), and a reclusive brother who managed to put together a skilled team of expert homeless people who could keep a secret for two years.
 
Sherlock practically told us he was making up the fake-twin body when he casually described him as " . . . that man, whoever he was . . . " when he told Anderson that whopper he passed off as an explanation.

Be realistic, folks.  Would Sherlock actually NOT know the identity of this convenient twin-brother-from-another-mother?  Really?

No, not really.

Some people actually reject the explanation Sherlock told Anderson because it was not "elegant" enough.  Jeez Marie, that yarn is so packed with "elegance" it could make the Queen to ride in the back seat of the royal coach!  Hell, that's the problem with it.  It's not a clever plan for a hoax, it's a dog-and-pony show.  Come on, folks – this is Sherlock Holmes, not David Copperfield.  With the help of Mycroft's agents (not homeless people) and the use of a simple fireman's safety net, Sherlock did what hundreds of terrified people in burning buildings have done for decades.

Jump.

One last thought.  Even if Sherlock needed to be "dead" so he could travel the world incognito and dismantle Moriarty's network, why did he go to all that trouble to fake a suicide that only two people were fooled by?  John and the sniper were the only ones who saw the fall and didn't know it was faked!  Everybody else on the block was in on the ruse, and they lied their butts off whenever they made any kind of statement to the public.

So, if the sole purpose of Sherlock's high dive was to convince the "public" he was dead, all he really had to do was have Mycroft create an official announcement that Sherlock Holmes had been killed or committed suicide.  Molly would then fake the records, Mycroft would order the casket sealed, Sherlock's "body" would be buried, and off our clever detective would go to roam the world and thwart the villains!
 
Don't get me wrong, fellow fans.  I love the show.  Doing all this high-order thinking is probably growing so many new dendrites in my brain I'll end up on Are You Smarter Than A 5th Grader and win the million dollars!
 
Wait, I just remembered.  That show isn't on any more.
 
Hey, I must be getting smarter already!

Last edited by Bruce Cook (January 27, 2014 10:51 pm)


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February 27, 2014 8:28 pm  #39


Re: Flaws In Theory #3

miriel68 wrote:

I think it is better not to nickpick, because there is no satisfying explanation. I am glad they muddied the waters rather than offer a clear (and hole-ridded) explanation: this way I can just accept "the magic trick" and it doesn't ruin TRF for me (although now is the menace of Moriarty resurrection, sigh). IF the things went in the way S. described them to Anderson the whole thing wouldn't have sense, anyway, for a simple reason:- the street was closed like a stage, only S. people were there.- Mycroft took care of Moriarty's sniperstherefore:WHY to jump from the roof at all? Only to fool Watson? Between pulling such a dangerous stunt (don't try to convince me it is NOT dangerous to jump from the roof of 5 stories building) and convincing Watson that he must not say a word about S. faking his death, what was a better option?  So I am going for the mystical "I am indestructible" at the end of the episode.

 
What do you mean Mycrofts people took care of the snipers before? We see the mrs Hudsonnone pack up and johns we follow through the gun scope and down as he stops following him and I assume packs up and leaves. The gun sight doesn't wobble and fall as if the sniper has been killed from behind as he watches John.

Thank you Bruce Cook for unmuddying things. I think a lot of people's head canon gets mixed up as faxt and passed around .


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February 28, 2014 12:12 am  #40


Re: Flaws In Theory #3

Bruce Cook wrote:

haseoke39 wrote:

The corpse wasn't just to fool John for half a second. It was to be used in all future deceptions (death records, etc.) Molly had to manipulate some records to get the dead guy out of the way, but surely she couldn't have faked records enough to convince the nation that Sherlock was dead without a body that looked like his.

Hmmm.  That's a puzzling assertion. I'm pretty sure John F. Kennedy is dead, but Wikipedia states that "Jacqueline Kennedy declared that the casket would be kept closed for the duration of the viewing and funeral."

Therefore, I contend that the next-of-kin (Mycroft and his parents) could simply order the coffin which supposedly contained Sherlock's body be kept closed.  I'm sure none of us thinks the funeral was held with an open casket which displayed a dead look-alike, right?  Of course not. So, a few hundred pounds of rocks would give the coffin the right weight.  It's as simple as that.
 
Remember, Mycroft arranged for a 747 to be filled with dead bodies to thwart a terrorist plan to blow up the aircraft in flight.  If Mycroft can have a plane filled with dead bodies, he wouldn't break a sweat arranging to have a rock-filled coffin buried in his brother's grave.

As for the alleged Sherlock look-alike -- he never existed.  That was just part of the BS which Sherlock told Anderson -- along with a big blue airbag, a good sniper to shoot the bad sniper (in a stairwell, with a scope), a make-up artist to create a fake facial wound (on a face smeared with blood), and a reclusive brother who managed to put together a skilled team of expert homeless people who could keep a secret for two years.
 
Sherlock practically told us he was making up the fake-twin body when he casually described him as " . . . that man, whoever he was . . . " when he told Anderson that whopper he passed off as an explanation.

Be realistic, folks.  Would Sherlock actually NOT know the identity of this convenient twin-brother-from-another-mother?  Really?

No, not really.

Some people actually reject the explanation Sherlock told Anderson because it was not "elegant" enough.  Jeez Marie, that yarn is so packed with "elegance" it could make the Queen to ride in the back seat of the royal coach!  Hell, that's the problem with it.  It's not a clever plan for a hoax, it's a dog-and-pony show.  Come on, folks – this is Sherlock Holmes, not David Copperfield.  With the help of Mycroft's agents (not homeless people) and the use of a simple fireman's safety net, Sherlock did what hundreds of terrified people in burning buildings have done for decades.

Jump.

One last thought.  Even if Sherlock needed to be "dead" so he could travel the world incognito and dismantle Moriarty's network, why did he go to all that trouble to fake a suicide that only two people were fooled by?  John and the sniper were the only ones who saw the fall and didn't know it was faked!  Everybody else on the block was in on the ruse, and they lied their butts off whenever they made any kind of statement to the public.

So, if the sole purpose of Sherlock's high dive was to convince the "public" he was dead, all he really had to do was have Mycroft create an official announcement that Sherlock Holmes had been killed or committed suicide.  Molly would then fake the records, Mycroft would order the casket sealed, Sherlock's "body" would be buried, and off our clever detective would go to roam the world and thwart the villains!
 
Don't get me wrong, fellow fans.  I love the show.  Doing all this high-order thinking is probably growing so many new dendrites in my brain I'll end up on Are You Smarter Than A 5th Grader and win the million dollars!
 
Wait, I just remembered.  That show isn't on any more.
 
Hey, I must be getting smarter already!

I agree except that a few hundred pounds of rocks would be terribly heavy for our wispy lithe Sherlock

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I think it's safe to assume a closed Casket for someone who jumped five stories wouldn't raise suspicions, so you're right no need for a corpse twin.

Even just given his new found fame and his dislike of people in life would be reason enough for mycroft or whomever to say "he preferred a closed casket. No gawkers"


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