Thanks for your thought, Susi! They are in fact quite interesting and very thoroughly displayed!

I agree with most of what you say. There is one more option Sherlock would have had after the scene in the empty house, and that would be to do nothing. John surely would have left Mary and went back to him.

That breaks it down to the question of Sherlock's prioritities: whether his own happiness comes first or the one of John (and Mary, according to the vow). I think the episode answered this question quite clearly.

Thanks again, Susi.

SusiGo wrote:

I agree with you. John might have returned but what about the child? Mary being pregnant totally changed the dynamics. I cannot believe John would leave his unborn child to live with Sherlock. That would be completely out of character. 

And we know from the scene at the parents' house that Sherlock's mother gave up a brilliant career as a mathematician to have children; Sherlock thinks that is the way that motherhood works. It's a hopelessly romantic view, but then Sherlock is hopelessly romantic in a lot of ways...


 

SolarSystem wrote:

I pretty much agree with everything you say here, Susi. There is just one point where I slightly disagree. What I've been asking myself lately: When Sherlock deduces Mary in TEH and the word "liar" pops up - what does he do with this information? I assume that he doesn't know what exactly it is that she's lying about. Did he just decide to ignore it? If so, why did he not try to find out more about this? I'd like to believe that if he found out about her past very early, and if he had been able to present proof of that to John, that things might have developed differently.
You said that John probably wouldn't have believed Sherlock if he's just told him that he deduced Mary to be a liar. But with proof...? I know, proof or not, it wouldn't have been easy for John to accept this.
But I really wonder why Sherlock apparently just ignored his own deduction...? Was it really just to protect John? Sherlock didn't even really know from what he was protecting him by not telling him about this, right?

the liar thing I think is interesting. my way of looking at it is that sherlock thought he could control the situation. he knew mary was a liar so in some ways, whats the issue? in sherlockland at least. sherlock knows john is a bit of a loose canon, who will kill, who seeks out danger etc. yet thats not a problem for him in the slightest. i don't know how much her being a liar matters to him, if he can expect to be able to detect specific instances of lying iyswim.

 

I have to say I feel a bit differently about this. I don't think Sherlock's motivation was only to make John happy. He wants Mary to stay because he likes her as a friend, possibly almost as much as he likes John.
Remember that before TEH Sherlock had been away for two years, and during that time he was lonely. When he returns he realises that he's not content with living alone in his flat anymore. He wants his friends back. Most of all he misses John. But the situation is difficult. Mary is the first person to support Sherlock. During the argument between Sherlock and John when they first meet again, she sides with Sherlock almost immediately. Her reaction seems a bit odd at first, considering all the grief she has surely seen her boyfriend go through, but after learning what kind of person Mary actually is it's understandable. Probably she has more in common with Sherlock than with John. She doesn't think Sherlock is abnormal because they're more or less like-minded people. She makes it possible for John and Sherlock to get back together. Sherlock sees that she's a liar but ignores it because she's important to him. Lying isn't very suspicious anyway. If he had seen "murderer" or so he might have said something, but who isn't a liar?
It's true that Mary almost killed Sherlock in HLV. And still he isn't very angry with her, probably because it's a thing he would have done himself. According to his deductions from his point of view it was logical. He even says the most logical solution would have been to actually kill him by shooting him in the head. But "sentiment got the better of you". In other words, Mary didn't kill him (or at least tried her best to keep him alive) because she likes him too much. She tried to do the best for all three of them - save Sherlock's life, make sure her husband won't become a suspect and still leave the building without getting caught. From the point of view of people like John (or us) the whole thing is madness, but I'm sure Sherlock has a lot of respect for such a clever solution. He probably thinks if John has to have a wife it better be someone like Mary.

Last edited by QuiteExtraordinary (January 16, 2014 7:26 pm)

Yes, he does like Mary. For example he lets her touch him, kisses her and they exchange looks that show a special understanding. And he made his vow to the whole Watson family. 
We mean basically the same - if you want to understand this you cannot apply any conventional standards for human behaviour. Sherlock was and is different. And that is what appeals to us. 
 

Yes, when Sherlock said that I was instantly reminded of his talk with Mycroft about people who are different. It seems that Magnussen hit a weak spot and thereby caused Sherlock's deep disgust. 

And I am not sure if we are done with Sherlock's deductions about Mary. What about the word "guardian" that has not been explained so far? The others are quite ordinary but this could mean a lot of things. And then there is also CAM's hint at her family in the telegram. 

Last edited by SusiGo (January 16, 2014 7:45 pm)

The writers explained pretty well in the podcast why Sherlock doesn't do a proper deduction on Mary. They explain it better than me so anyone who is interested in that question I suggest to listen to the podcasts, it's in the HLV part somewhere. Basically, when we really like someone, we don't want to see the bad sides and we ignore and deny them. 

The other thing: I agree that Sherlock does not do everything just for John. He and Mary have an instant connection and understand each other. She had to fake her own death too and she's probably protecting people from her past (hence 'guardian'). She understands what he's been through and visa versa. 

This club seems to be growing. How could John fit in? 

Gosh! Another thing I must have overlooked; I recall Sherlock noting that she had faked her identity but I don't think that there was anything there about her faking her own death.

Excuses for watching it again to check it are always welcome, but I'm having difficulty with the idea of Sherlock investigating it from his hospital bed after he had been shot, not least because research takes time, and a decent wifi connection, which he didn't have in hospital. If he had bothered to check up on Mary's X, the usher, then I really doubt that he would not have looked at Mary at all.

And then there's Mycroft whose life revolves around seeing connections; I very much doubt that he would have omitted a security check on the fiancée of his brother's best friend. It goes with the territory, and Mycroft is not a guy who would overlook the blindingly obvious...