BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » The dynamic between Sherlock, John & Mary

stoertebeker · January 16, 2014 2:23 pm

Well, I’m still struggling to come to terms with this “killer-queen-Mary-thing”. But after watching HLV a second time and reflecting the Baker Street scene with Sherlock/John/Mary I think I’ve got an idea about the question why Sherlock forgave Mary for shooting him, why he still trusted and liked her and how the dynamic between the three of them works. I like to try to elaborate this a bit. I was unsure were to but this as it contains aspects of several other discussions regarding Sherlock’s, Mary’s and John’s behaviour. Therefore I opened a new thread. I hope, you don’t mind.

Right from the beginning Sherlock and Mary got along fairly good which each other which seems a bit odd considering Sherlock’s reaction towards John’s girlfriends in series 1 and 2. One reason might be that he tried to behave for John’s sake. But I think that’s not the only reason. The scene at Baker Street in HLV between the three showed some really important psychological facts about Sherlock and John. The more I think about this scene the more brilliant I find it! Sherlock pointed out John’s “addiction” to adrenaline and that he needs danger in his life. In that context Sherlock’s sentence in TEH “What life, I’ve been away.” makes so much more sense. It wasn’t a snidely remark about John not being able to live on his own. No, it was just a fact. John needs, he craves danger, excitement and adrenaline (look at his restless behavior at the beginning of HLV). Sherlock sensed this instantly when he met John in ASiP. After Lestrade consulted him with the suicide case, Sherlock asked John, whom he knows only for a few minutes at that time, to accompany him to a crime scene and involving him in his work. And John followed. He chose Sherlock because he sensed the danger with him. BUT it was the same the other way round! Sherlock chose John as well because he felt the connection between them, the craving for danger and that they would be ideal counterparts for each other.

Sherlock told John in HLV that because of his “addiction” for danger he chose Mary (like he chose Sherlock). I think that is exactly the reason why Sherlock liked and trusted Mary right from the beginning. He sensed the same sort of danger, tension, excitement in her as he has with John back then in ASiP. And maybe this unconscious trust is the reason why he never really investigated Mary’s origin.
Amanda said in one interview that Sherlock and Mary see a lot of themselves in the other one. Now, with this episode and Mary’s background this statement makes a lot of sense. Mary and Sherlock are both people with extraordinary abilities, with unusual life stories and broken personalities. And they both share the same goal: keeping John safe. Sherlock knows that sometimes desperate measures are necessary to protect those people you care for (TRF).

Sherlock might not be a sociopath but he is still a person with an odd way of thinking. For us “normal” people (), it’s hardly comprehensible why Sherlock forgave Mary and why he is still very fond of her (the hug and “That’s my girl.” at the end of HLV). But with the above mentioned aspects in mind his behaviour is much more understandable (at least for me). And I suppose in a similar way this also applies for John’s behaviour (it just took him a bit longer to realize – he is after all the most normal one of the three ).

I am still not quite happy about what they made of Mary because with her secret agent past she is not a background character any more. She has been raised on the same level as Sherlock and John and I am not sure how this should work out and we don’t really need two Sherlock’s in the show. But we’ll see. I have faith in Moftiss that they will come up with a lot of clever ideas and plot twists again.

I’m not sure whether I could made my point of view understandable. It’s quite hard to argue in a foreign language. But I hope I could give you an idea in what direction my train of thoughts went. This is IMO a very good example of series overlapping psychological development of the characters.

Mrs. Watson · January 16, 2014 2:49 pm

Hello! I pretty much agree with you. Sherlock forgave Mary quite easily because he understands her and probably thinks he would have done the same in her situation.
I don't see Sherlock and Mary as the same. Sherlock is on higher intelectual level although Mary has other skills that make up for it.
John IS the most normal of them all... which should be scary if it wasn't so fun (for us)

silverblaze · January 16, 2014 3:00 pm

I believe in the Moftiss!

They're totally capable of creating a character that is both ethical and an assassin. Ethical people who kill happen all the time in fiction, take for example James Bond. Whether people will like it or not is another thing, people seem to be determined to hate her.

Someone here mentioned The Valley of Fear and I thought that'd be a great backstory for Mary. The protagonist is an American agent who faked his own death after eliminating a gang of miner thugs.

This is fiction and it's not our real world. I find it rather strange that people are capable of suspending disbelief on the 2.5 metre assassin called the Golem, the deduction superpowers and Mycroft omnipotence, but not on the assassin wife.

I think people just want it to be the Sherlock and John show, and dislike anything that might change that dynamic. I disagree. New things must happen or it'll get boring, they might grow apart a bit, it might become a bit more of an ensemble show. I'd really prefer that. Otherwise the show would have to rever to the 'baddy of the week' format. I don't see that working for something that airs once every two years.

Marva · January 16, 2014 3:09 pm

stoertebeker, I really like your idea how the "which life?" line correlates to John's addiction to excitement and danger. You nailed it.

I have to admit though, that you explanation on why Sherlock forgave Mary so easily didn't convince me,I'm afraid. Why does the fact that you see a similar personality in someone else makes you trust them? For example, Moriarty is quite similar as Sherlock, too. This doesn't make him trust him. Not at all. And the idea that made Sherlock come back to life was "John Watson is in danger". Which danger? I assume being married to a killer. But for some reason Sherlock re-evaluated later on. Why? I don't know.

Ozma · January 16, 2014 3:15 pm

This is a really good way of seeing it.

however, Mary has ruined it a bit for me so I hope we can go back to the 2 protagonists - I don't want a trio.

mrshouse · January 16, 2014 3:29 pm

Ozma wrote:
This is a really good way of seeing it.

however, Mary has ruined it a bit for me so I hope we can go back to the 2 protagonists - I don't want a trio.

Agree wholeheartedly!!!!!

silverblaze · January 16, 2014 3:32 pm

I don't think it will become a trio if she sticks around. I think it will be more of an ensemble thing. The show is moving in that direction anyway with the appearance of Mycroft, Lestrade, Mrs. Hudson and Anderson.

mrshouse · January 16, 2014 3:38 pm

silverblaze wrote:
I don't think it will become a trio if she sticks around. I think it will be more of an ensemble thing. The show is moving in that direction anyway with the appearance of Mycroft, Lestrade, Mrs. Hudson and Anderson.

I don't see it this way because none of the mentioned above is such a go-between as the figure of mary up to now. They are all brilliant supporting cast but no more. I can't see how a wife of one of the leads can go back levels with the supporting cast, especially when given so much room in series 3. Too much for my likes...

Marva · January 16, 2014 3:48 pm

Please can we just not discuss the impact of Mary in the series here? There are other threads for that. I think the basic intention of this thread, working out the John-Sherlock-Mary relationship as it appears now, is quite interesting.

Mattlocked · January 16, 2014 3:49 pm

Mary was a killer, stopped it for whatever reason and is pregnant. In S4 she may as well stay at home, take care of the baby and let John and Sherlock be "sexy".
Mrs Hudson is kind of a badass, too, but never joins them during their adventures.
I don't understand why people don't want Mary along anymore when nobody really can know, yet, what Mofftiss will do with her!? IMO right now it is NOT a trio. So what's the problem??

silverblaze · January 16, 2014 3:54 pm

NOOOO, don't kill Mycroft!!!

Sorry, I'm obsessed with that character.

mrshouse: stop worrying about the bromance. It'll be fine. Moftiss are both married and they still seem to have a bromance thing together. Pretty sure they can write one too. Mary Morstan in the canon doesn't influence the bromance either.

Personally I want to see it changed. I'm getting a bit fed up with the dynamics between the two, it's starting to get repetitive.

stoertebeker · January 16, 2014 3:55 pm

Marva wrote:
Please can we just not discuss the impact of Mary in the series here? There are other threads for that. I think the basic intention of this thread, working out the John-Sherlock-Mary relationship as it appears now, is quite interesting.

Thanks! I would like to keep the moral discussion about Mary in the respective thread.

silverblaze · January 16, 2014 4:10 pm

stoertebeker wrote:
Marva wrote:
Please can we just not discuss the impact of Mary in the series here? There are other threads for that. I think the basic intention of this thread, working out the John-Sherlock-Mary relationship as it appears now, is quite interesting.
Thanks! I would like to keep the moral discussion about Mary in the respective thread.

I'm happy to comply but how can you discuss their relationship without discussing her impact on the show? And the way people feel about the bromance and how she changes that dynamic? They're all intertwined.

tonnaree · January 16, 2014 4:11 pm

"This is fiction and it's not our real world. I find it rather strange that people are capable of suspending disbelief on the 2.5 metre assassin called the Golem, the deduction superpowers and Mycroft omnipotence, but not on the assassin wife."

This made me laugh out loud.

Marva · January 16, 2014 4:13 pm

No, there are two things:

what DID happen (e.g. why did Sherlock forgive her), and what do you THINK about that (e.g. I don't like that Sherlock forgave her so easily).

And if you mix these things up everybody gets just emotional.

silverblaze · January 16, 2014 4:18 pm

Marva wrote:
No, there are two things:

what DID happen (e.g. why did Sherlock forgive her), and what do you THINK about that (e.g. I don't like that Sherlock forgave her so easily).

And if you mix these things up everybody gets just emotional.

That's why I felt the need to point it out.

Marva · January 16, 2014 4:20 pm

well after we figured out what actually happened I agree to evaluate that. But I'd like to stick to the facts first. Please.

Willow · January 16, 2014 5:04 pm

Well, for 4 minutes there was no relationship between Sherlock, John and Mary; Sherlock genuinely thought he would never see them again.

Those 4 minutes are where Sherlock distances himself, literally, from everyone and everywhere he loves; having said goodbye he is looking down, for one last time, at the green and pleasant land of Blake's hymn.

We really have no idea whatsoever of what the relationship between Sherlock, John and Mary in the future will be like, based on this season, because the writers have chosen to decisively break the chain; there can be no going back to a humdrum chug a lug life where John inspects people's bunions, Mary gives people their flu jabs and Sherlock solves a few cases here and there.

It doesn't matter whether Moriarty is real or not; someone is capable of an apparently impossible technical feat which puts the fear of God into anyone with any sense. England needs Sherlock, in England, and John has a very good idea of what it is like to be on the receiving end of a psychopathic rampage. I cannot see him deciding to forgive and forget the guy who wrapped him up in explosives, or anyone clever enough to make it seem that they are Moriarty, and when he signed up to serve Queen and Country back in his Army days it didn't include an 'unless my wife is pregnant' clause.

'His Last Bow' is about patriotism, or love of country, however you wish to express it; we know where Sherlock and John Watson stand. We don't know where Mary stands, but on the information we have so far it is unlikely to be alongside them; once the plane turned back all bets are off...

I

silverblaze · January 16, 2014 7:52 pm

stoertebeker wrote:
Well, I’m still struggling to come to terms with this “killer-queen-Mary-thing”. But after watching HLV a second time and reflecting the Baker Street scene with Sherlock/John/Mary I think I’ve got an idea about the question why Sherlock forgave Mary for shooting him, why he still trusted and liked her and how the dynamic between the three of them works.

stoertebeker wrote:
John needs, he craves danger, excitement and adrenaline (look at his restless behavior at the beginning of HLV). Sherlock sensed this instantly when he met John in ASiP.

Yes, and Sherlock craved companionship probably without even realising it. He needed an assistant, but they very soon became friends. John was the only one who would fit in his crazy lifestyle.

Mary probably did a lot of unusual BAMF things when they started their relationship and that's why John fell for her.

stoertebeker wrote:
Sherlock told John in HLV that because of his “addiction” for danger he chose Mary (like he chose Sherlock). I think that is exactly the reason why Sherlock liked and trusted Mary right from the beginning. He sensed the same sort of danger, tension, excitement in her as he has with John back then in ASiP. And maybe this unconscious trust is the reason why he never really investigated Mary’s origin.

I think recognising the craving of danger and instant trust and understanding are two different things. I don't think Sherlock is necessarily attracted to danger loving people, those just happen the type of people who 'get' him. Mary got him instantly in the reunion scene, we now know that she probably had to fake her own death as well so she is the only one who understand how hard it is and why people sometimes have to do something so unethical.

Therefore she was naturally inclined to help him and to restore his relationship with John, of course also for John's sake, he probably talked about Sherlock all the time. John's loss may also have been a reason why she was attracted to him, she had to do the same thing for the people she loved so she recognised his pain.

stoertebeker wrote:
Sherlock might not be a sociopath but he is still a person with an odd way of thinking. For us “normal” people (), it’s hardly comprehensible why Sherlock forgave Mary and why he is still very fond of her (the hug and “That’s my girl.” at the end of HLV). But with the above mentioned aspects in mind his behaviour is much more understandable (at least for me).

They have a deep bond, I think. Not as deep as with John, but still deep and it formed very quickly from that recognition. For some reason he understood her and at the end he understands what it's like to be a murderer.

Mary really didn't have any other choice than to shoot him. (People have argued otherwise, but that is the in-universe explanation, so I'm going with that.) Who knows who else she was protecting, I guess her backstory is absolutely heroic, though not entirely lawful.

Willow · January 16, 2014 8:15 pm

But if Mary's backstory was

'Absolutely heroic, though not entirely lawful'

how could it possibly have made John not love her? Why should she be prepared to kill to prevent him discovering her absolute heroism, why tell him that he would not love her if he knew?

There is no universe in which that would make sense.