Sherlock's justification of saving the marriage of his friend to a freelancing assassin, seems to be an extraordinarily bad justification

In case anybody believes that... Sherlock didn't intend to save their marriage only, it was about saving their lives. CAM could have phoned people that were ready to kill Mary for what she did, he said so himself, and Mary and John would have sticked together no matter what. With Mary being in danger, John would have been too. And one day there would be two dead bodies lying in their flat. Take that risk?

anjaH_alias wrote:

Hanka wrote:

miriel68, you're not really contradicting me here. I'm okay with people murdering others on TV, it happens, it should be shown on TV/in literature. I am just very unhappy with the way it is dealt with: not at all. Sherlock kills somebody, then there's about a minute of people being shocked, and then, surprise, three minutes later, Sherlock just comes back to solve yet another crime. Mycroft is over it. John is over it. Nobody even implies that this is wrong, a murderer not facing justice because he is oh so intelligent and needed (why? He just 'solved' a problem in the worst possible way). The characters are joking again already, and apparently ready to go 'back to business'.

I actually don´t get what you feel here, but I can tell you what I feel since Sunday: I feel a huge cramp around and in my breast whenever I am thinking about that scene. It´s so dark, really dark. I see that child crying, which brought himself into that hopeless dead end situation. I understand it and I see and feel how it suffers, how everybody around him is suffering. The jokes I hear are bitter gallows humour, grim, not funny at all. Sardonic. I am really touched and feel sad.
I can´t understand what you read in that scene, I don´t see what you see. It´s one of the most striking, impressing, tragic and thinkworthy scenes which I saw since ages. It makes me think about that matter, I am asking myself questions - what if or if not? -, and this is much more moving and deep as any of that morally clotted, political correct blab of so many other films I saw. I really salute to Stephen Moffat here - what he made is courageous and profound.
And so I can´t understand how anybody can watch this with his/her everyday point of view, doesn´t see the beauty of that scene and is resistant to that tragedy. Is it self protection or am I too romantic?

Same here.

anjaH_alias wrote:

I actually don´t get what you feel here, but I can tell you what I feel since Sunday: I feel a huge cramp around and in my breast whenever I am thinking about that scene. It´s so dark, really dark. I see that child crying, which brought himself into that hopeless dead end situation. I understand it and I see and feel how it suffers, how everybody around him is suffering. The jokes I hear are bitter gallows humour, grim, not funny at all. Sardonic. I am really touched and feel sad.
I can´t understand what you read in that scene, I don´t see what you see. It´s one of the most striking, impressing, tragic and thinkworthy scenes which I saw since ages. It makes me think about that matter, I am asking myself questions - what if or if not? -, and this is much more moving and deep as any of that morally clotted, political correct blab of so many other films I saw. I really salute to Stephen Moffat here - what he made is courageous and profound.
And so I can´t understand how anybody can watch this with his/her everyday point of view, doesn´t see the beauty of that scene and is resistant to that tragedy. Is it self protection or am I too romantic?

Oh anja... I think I must have read this four or five times now. This thread really got me thinking, and I have to admit that I have trouble to come up with a... solution to the 'problem' we are presented with in this scene (and afterwards). What Sherlock did... I still have huge problems to make up my mind about this. But what you just wrote... wow. You used the word tragedy, and I think I can relate to that. Sherlock suffers in that scene because John has to suffer... and it seems there really was no other way out, it just had to be.
Thanks for giving me something to think about, your words really moved me.

anjaH_alias wrote:

It´s one of the most striking, impressing, tragic and thinkworthy scenes which I saw since ages. It makes me think about that matter, I am asking myself questions - what if or if not? -, and this is much more moving and deep as any of that morally clotted, political correct blab of so many other films I saw. I really salute to Stephen Moffat here - what he made is courageous and profound.
And so I can´t understand how anybody can watch this with his/her everyday point of view, doesn´t see the beauty of that scene and is resistant to that tragedy. Is it self protection or am I too romantic?

 I agree completely. We see so many films where killing is just a meaningless part of the plot and we are supposed to take it lightly and continue to like the protagonist (think about Bond movies or Indian Jones). The ending of TLV is so poignant because we can clearly read the moral turmoil behind Sherlock's act (did you noticed that in one moment he sways, as if he were about to pass out?). He truly made a pact with the devil: be killing M. he sold his soul in order to save his friend, his brother (and his country ) and he is well aware of this. Furthermore, but it is probably just me, I am not sure whether Mary and John are truly worthy of his sacrifice (I admit I am rather pissed off with John Watson!)
 

sherlocked wrote:

Oh, I think, Mary did much more than working for the government with a licence to kill. CAM, said, she was freelancing and 'wicked'... and I believe him, strange as that sounds. If she was just a CIA agent with a licence to kill, she wouldn't have to fear to lose John's love, and it wouldn't be exactly grade A blackmailing material...

And there would be the question how tolerating you are. Once you start killing people for money, I assume your general ethic is beclouded. Funny though, when watching films like James Bond or Jason Bourne you never question their judgement when killing another person. 

SolarSystem wrote:

anjaH_alias wrote:

I actually don´t get what you feel here, but I can tell you what I feel since Sunday: I feel a huge cramp around and in my breast whenever I am thinking about that scene. It´s so dark, really dark. I see that child crying, which brought himself into that hopeless dead end situation. I understand it and I see and feel how it suffers, how everybody around him is suffering. The jokes I hear are bitter gallows humour, grim, not funny at all. Sardonic. I am really touched and feel sad.
I can´t understand what you read in that scene, I don´t see what you see. It´s one of the most striking, impressing, tragic and thinkworthy scenes which I saw since ages. It makes me think about that matter, I am asking myself questions - what if or if not? -, and this is much more moving and deep as any of that morally clotted, political correct blab of so many other films I saw. I really salute to Stephen Moffat here - what he made is courageous and profound.
And so I can´t understand how anybody can watch this with his/her everyday point of view, doesn´t see the beauty of that scene and is resistant to that tragedy. Is it self protection or am I too romantic?

Oh anja... I think I must have read this four or five times now. This thread really got me thinking, and I have to admit that I have trouble to come up with a... solution to the 'problem' we are presented with in this scene (and afterwards). What Sherlock did... I still have huge problems to make up my mind about this. But what you just wrote... wow. You used the word tragedy, and I think I can relate to that. Sherlock suffers in that scene because John has to suffer... and it seems there really was no other way out, it just had to be.
Thanks for giving me something to think about, your words really moved me.

Was a pleasure - and, yes, it´s tragic imo. Sherlock is not an icecold murderer. And, one of my ifs: Imagine Mary had killed CAM, Sherlock came 10 minutes later - everything then had been like before in the relationships. The opposite happened, that´s the material of a classic greek tragedy - innocent guilt somehow.
But would the nicer solution really be better? Now it´s true and serious, not covered by a layer of lies and wrong life stories, and the protagonists have to deal with the situation. Hard to bear at the moment.

Last edited by anjaH_alias (January 15, 2014 10:14 pm)

Sherlocked: the baby is really good point! 

anjaH_alias wrote:

SolarSystem wrote:

anjaH_alias wrote:

I actually don´t get what you feel here, but I can tell you what I feel since Sunday: I feel a huge cramp around and in my breast whenever I am thinking about that scene. It´s so dark, really dark. I see that child crying, which brought himself into that hopeless dead end situation. I understand it and I see and feel how it suffers, how everybody around him is suffering. The jokes I hear are bitter gallows humour, grim, not funny at all. Sardonic. I am really touched and feel sad.
I can´t understand what you read in that scene, I don´t see what you see. It´s one of the most striking, impressing, tragic and thinkworthy scenes which I saw since ages. It makes me think about that matter, I am asking myself questions - what if or if not? -, and this is much more moving and deep as any of that morally clotted, political correct blab of so many other films I saw. I really salute to Stephen Moffat here - what he made is courageous and profound.
And so I can´t understand how anybody can watch this with his/her everyday point of view, doesn´t see the beauty of that scene and is resistant to that tragedy. Is it self protection or am I too romantic?

Oh anja... I think I must have read this four or five times now. This thread really got me thinking, and I have to admit that I have trouble to come up with a... solution to the 'problem' we are presented with in this scene (and afterwards). What Sherlock did... I still have huge problems to make up my mind about this. But what you just wrote... wow. You used the word tragedy, and I think I can relate to that. Sherlock suffers in that scene because John has to suffer... and it seems there really was no other way out, it just had to be.
Thanks for giving me something to think about, your words really moved me.

Was a pleasure - and, yes, it´s tragic imo. Sherlock is not an icecold murderer. And, one of my ifs: Imagine Mary had killed CAM, Sherlock came 10 minutes later - everything then had been like before in the relationships. The opposite happened, that´s the material of a classic greek tragedy - innocent guilt somehow.
But would the nicer solution really be better? Now it´s true and serious, not covered by a layer of lies and wrong life stories, and the protagonists have to deal with the situation. Hard to bear at the moment.

Very true. And even though the ending might appear as a happy ending - after all, Sherlock doesn't have to leave and returns straight away - I think it's anything but. I think there is a lot that will have to be dealt with and I sincerely hope that we will see it dealt with in Series 4.
It'll be interesting to see what this will do to Sherlock. After all, he ended up murdering CAM because he was wrong, because he missed something. He thought he'd find the vault - but he was wrong. Why was he wrong, why wasn't he able to deduce this? Emotions, sentiment? What was it that got in his way? Will we see a different Sherlck yet again in Series 4...?

Mrs.Wenceslas wrote:

Sherlocked: the baby is really good point! 

 Yes, I think the writers made her pregnant for a reason, and not just sentimental reasons. And, since she didn't miscarry, the baby will be born, since there is no way, they will tell us in season 4: 'And, btw, while all this time elapsed, Mary tragically had a miscarriage', or 'Whe have to announce, that Mary Watson tragically died in childbirth'.
So we will have to deal with the baby.... unless, they decide this time, not to have a real time lapse. Come to think of it, we probably won't have a real time lapse, since the Moriarty crisis has to be dealt with... and that can't wait two years.

just for the - sentimental - record: I´d really want to see Sherlock with that baby girl in his arms. okay.good night everyone.