lindyhopper883 wrote:

The Janine story was probably the one part of the episode that really got to me. I know the fake engagement was right out of cannon, but the way Sherlock treated Janine was pretty awful. The canon books are full of what would now be considered sexism but was acceptable then, I just think that maybe the writers could have modernised their interpretation so that Sherlock wasn't such an ass. I feel like as a modern day woman I should be appaled at how Sherlock treated Janine. And I was. But then the scene ended with shirtless Benedict Cumberbatch and I forgot my anger... (Oh the irony!) 

aw, but don't be offended. If Jeanine had been a (gay) man and Sherlock thought that by asking them out he would have gotten the info he wanted, he would have done it anyway. He didn't go, Oh, she's a woman, will be easy to trick...

I laughed so hard at the Janine - thing. John's reaction was soooo wonderful.
And Janines visit in the hospital was great.

By the way: Am I strange when I would never have an engagement with anyone who wouldn't really have sex...
 

But people wouldn't believe that, even if it was written by the Daily Mail 

Victoire wrote:

I agree that they didn't have sex together, the discussion in the hospital is clear enough.
I am not sure if he regrets the possibility to have this relationship though. When John and sherlock discuss in the elevator, sherlock says something like : 'I suppose that after that she won't want to see me again, but you are the women expert'. Sorry if I quote badly, I just watch it once and it is what I remember... Could it mean that he would have liked to continue seeing her ?

I don't think so. I think it just shows that he calculated the whole thing through and knew that he wouldn't even have to withdraw his proposal, because she would just break it off herself afterwards.

I'm not bothered either. Sherlock is a sociopath, that's the way he rolls. And she did get a nice cottage out of it 

QuiteExtraordinary wrote:

I have a conspiracy theory.
I don't buy the Janine story at all. Romance or not, I just can't believe that she could be that stupid. I mean, she first met Sherlock at the wedding, where he made a rather harsh speech against romantic love and marriage in general (afterwards he admitted that wasn't very nice but he didn't really take it back). That was in May. HLV takes place in autumn if I saw that correctly. So we're supposed to think that only about five months later Janine is head over heels in love with Sherlock and believes that her feelings are reciprocated? So much that she does anything he asks of her, stays in his flat overnight (apparently more than once) although he's not there, and doesn't even notice that he's using drugs? She believes all his lies although they're extremely obvious? Apart from that, in Baker Street she doesn't exactly act as if there's so much romance in their relationship. With her behaviour and her comments she makes it seem as if it's mostly about sex. Later it turns out that wasn't the case at all.
Then her reaction in the hospital after she broke up with Sherlock. If she had been so in love, shouldn't she be crying? Where are the emotions? She's triumphant because the press published her stories and that's it. She even says something along the lines of "we could have been friends". So she got over him that quickly?
I suspect there was something else going on. Sherlock made a big issue of not wanting anybody to enter the bedroom. It's possible that there was something in the bedroom, maybe also in the bathroom, that nobody else was supposed to see. Janine's actual task might have been to distract John. On a cue she would walk out of the bedroom, only half dressed (John would of course be very impressed by that), and then act as if she was doing things with Sherlock in the bathroom to make sure John wouldn't go in there either. Then Janine and Sherlock would put on a show to make sure John didn't ask too many questions about other things. That worked perfectly. See, it's not even been two days and I'm already overanalysing everything.

sorry, but I have to interfer here.
The scene with Janine in Baker Street takes place 1 month after the wedding. It is directly after John took Sherlock out of the drug den (remember, Sherlock went to have a bath to refresh himself). Sherlock had no clue that John would be around in that moment as he didn't know that he would meet him at the drug den. Therefore there is no point in setting up Janine in order to prevent John to go into the bedroom or the bathroom.

I have to admit, though, that Janine's reaction on the break-up was not very emotional. On the other hand she already had enough time to sell her story to the newspapers, so who nows how much time has passed and how much she maybe cried before.

QuiteExtraordinary wrote:

I have a conspiracy theory.
I don't buy the Janine story at all. Romance or not, I just can't believe that she could be that stupid. I mean, she first met Sherlock at the wedding, where he made a rather harsh speech against romantic love and marriage in general (afterwards he admitted that wasn't very nice but he didn't really take it back). That was in May. HLV takes place in autumn if I saw that correctly. So we're supposed to think that only about five months later Janine is head over heels in love with Sherlock and believes that her feelings are reciprocated? So much that she does anything he asks of her, stays in his flat overnight (apparently more than once) although he's not there, and doesn't even notice that he's using drugs? She believes all his lies although they're extremely obvious? Apart from that, in Baker Street she doesn't exactly act as if there's so much romance in their relationship. With her behaviour and her comments she makes it seem as if it's mostly about sex. Later it turns out that wasn't the case at all.
Then her reaction in the hospital after she broke up with Sherlock. If she had been so in love, shouldn't she be crying? Where are the emotions? She's triumphant because the press published her stories and that's it. She even says something along the lines of "we could have been friends". So she got over him that quickly?
I suspect there was something else going on. Sherlock made a big issue of not wanting anybody to enter the bedroom. It's possible that there was something in the bedroom, maybe also in the bathroom, that nobody else was supposed to see. Janine's actual task might have been to distract John. On a cue she would walk out of the bedroom, only half dressed (John would of course be very impressed by that), and then act as if she was doing things with Sherlock in the bathroom to make sure John wouldn't go in there either. Then Janine and Sherlock would put on a show to make sure John didn't ask too many questions about other things. That worked perfectly. See, it's not even been two days and I'm already overanalysing everything.

Had there been anything like that between them I think we'd have known during the hospital scene. Plus the first scene at Sherlock's happens only one month after the wedding, in June. The truth is probably far simpler - Sherlock used her, while Janine was probably infatuated, flattered and proud to have piqued the interest of a celebrity. In the end she was never hopelessly in love with him, and being an intelligent, witty girl she immediately saw the potential for money and revenge.

 

I thought they forgave each other so quickly because their connection was real. They understood each other and were basically just good friends. And she immediately got her revenge so after that the air was cleared again. 

QuiteExtraordinary wrote:

So I just watched it again (the scene at Baker Street), and I'm convinced that they're both faking. And she's torturing him. I think in their dialogue she's threatening Sherlock to tell John the truth. And the kiss in the end was not Sherlock's intention but she did it on purpose because she knew he didn't like it and he had to play along.
Or maybe that's just the only way I can deal with that scene because otherwise I find it too awful. I just refuse to believe that anyone could be so stupid, and I don't understand how their "relationship" is supposed to have worked before that day.

But you're just like ignoring all their following interactions  

It was not a ruse, the hospital scene is proof enough. Why would they need to keep up the charade when it's just the two of them in the room? First, she accuses him of being a "backstabbing, heartless, manipulative bastard" (to which he responds with a "fame-hungry whore"), then confesses to having lowered his morphine, finally she clearly and wistfully tells him: you shouldn't have lied, you know, we could have been friends. That right there tells us she knows she's been manipulated. She's being honest, they're both being honest in this scene.

Janine wasn't stupid. Sherlock is a hyper-intelligent sociopath. He knows perfectly well how to be charming and how to play boyfriend, he's spent his whole life observing the behaviour of "the lessers" while not partaking in it, much like an anthropologist. Plus, he's a celebrity, handsome (if somewhat reptilian), well-dressed when he's not slumming it with heroin addicts, maddeningly charismatic, well-educated, probably wealthy and plays the violin like a pro. How could you blame her for believing, or wanting to believe, him?

Last edited by shezza (January 14, 2014 10:31 pm)

Nope, she actually did the whole shocked-and-delighted-hand-on-heart-gasp thing. Actually, I think John told her. How else would she know? Mmmm.