BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary

lil · January 14, 2014 6:21 am

sj4iy wrote:
Wholocked wrote:
I think the idea that Mycroft would have deduced it all because he is even smarter than Sherlock is flawed. To deduce her, Mycroft would have had to care to do so. I really don't see him bothering.
Basically this. To Mycroft, Mary was just the wife of his brother's best friend. She really wouldn't have come up on his radar. And Mycroft's not the type to go searching for his brother's would-be murderer under any circumstances. So yeah...he just wouldn't care either way.

And of course, there would be nothing to glean from even hearing about a fight at Baker Street, because that place doesn't stay quiet even in the best of times.

You guys think Mycroft doesn't care about who shot sherlock, when we actually saw him say it would of broken his heart if anything happened to him.
Also he panicked at the end, do you rem the scene whee Mycroft screams down the megaphone. Do not Shoot Sherlock Holmes!
Would almost any brother on the planet not be intrested in own baby brothers shooting?
There is no evidence that Mycroft doesn't care/isn't intested in his brothers life, but there is loads that he is, right from s01e01.

Last edited by lil (January 14, 2014 6:35 am)

Wholocked · January 14, 2014 7:10 am

lil wrote:
sj4iy wrote:
Wholocked wrote:
I think the idea that Mycroft would have deduced it all because he is even smarter than Sherlock is flawed. To deduce her, Mycroft would have had to care to do so. I really don't see him bothering.
Basically this. To Mycroft, Mary was just the wife of his brother's best friend. She really wouldn't have come up on his radar. And Mycroft's not the type to go searching for his brother's would-be murderer under any circumstances. So yeah...he just wouldn't care either way.

And of course, there would be nothing to glean from even hearing about a fight at Baker Street, because that place doesn't stay quiet even in the best of times.

You guys think Mycroft doesn't care about who shot sherlock, when we actually saw him say it would of broken his heart if anything happened to him.
Also he panicked at the end, do you rem the scene whee Mycroft screams down the megaphone. Do not Shoot Sherlock Holmes!
Would almost any brother on the planet not be intrested in own baby brothers shooting?
There is no evidence that Mycroft doesn't care/isn't intested in his brothers life, but there is loads that he is, right from s01e01.

No, i'm not saying he doesn't care about who shot Sherlock; I'm saying he doesn't care enough about Mary to deduce her and see that she's an assassin. I thought that's what we were talking about here? We're not talking about Mycroft deducing who shot Sherlock...are we?

Cause now I'm confused.

And yes, Mycroft could definitely find out who shot Sherlock but he doesn't, or doesn't make it known, because Sherlock is dealing with it himself. If Sherlock had died, however, I doubt the wrath of Mycroft would have known any bounds.

lil wrote:
He first contacted her a long time ago , months b4 the wedding. She hadn't known John, what a year yet then?But she stayed, putting everyone she knew in danger and started plotting a murder.

When did CAM contact her, then? The first I am aware of is the letter from him at her wedding...where does it show us that she was contacted months before the wedding? Cause if that's the case then yes, things shift a bit.

Last edited by Wholocked (January 14, 2014 7:12 am)

dexter.lei · January 14, 2014 8:08 am

The reason why Sherlock said that Mary saved his life, I think, is because Sherlock is a reasonable man, everything he think and do is almost based on logic. And when he met Mary in the Magnusson's office, the only reasonable solution to Mary for him was to kill him. But instead, she chose not to. So Mary saved his life.
As to Mary's sacredness, presumably if you were Mary, would you felt a scary when someone knows your deep secret is just wake up. When she pulled a bullet in Sherlock's body, every normal person in her position would hope the best result is Sherlock would be in a coma forever. Would anyone agree with me?
So I would say, when she heard about Sherlock'wake-up, she would feel both happy and scared, only scary is much more.

SusiGo · January 14, 2014 8:17 am

Wholocked: I think the texts to Mary during the bonfire night prove CAM contacting her. Maybe she does not know that they come from him but this six to seven months before the wedding.

Ozma · January 14, 2014 8:58 am

ok, so I have a few things to say about this:

- I agree that we don't know whether Mycroft knows it was her, everybody can think whatever they want, but frankly what has been said is true that you want it or not - the investigation would start straightaway, and there are just too many details and clues which make it pretty clear there was only ONE person who could have shot him. Again, Mycroft isn't stupid.

To me, though, the fact that Mycroft knows was given away by the scene at the parents' house- with Mummy Holmes going 'If I find out who it is I will go monstrous' and then the camera cuts to Mycroft's face - and his face right then says 'You are bringing them tea right now...'

I continue to think Mary's motives, John's decision to take her back like nothing happened (actually, he thinks it's a 'privilege' to still stay with her!!!) but most of all, Sherlock's efforts to push them back together ABSURD.
The noble thing to do - walk away - was there as an option, but Mary went - oh no, nononono, I finally got married, you ain't taking this away from me! So she stays, and Sherlock not only knows that she has been killing people for money for YEARS, but she has also just promised him she would do ANYTHING (and she proved it) to keep John with him - this anything not meaning she would try to be a better person but, it seems, anything to cover up anything that John might not like. And this is LYING.

The fact that it was done out of love cannot possibly make you think it's ok?? I love Cumberbatch, what am I going to do, go and kill his next girlfriend if she isn't me?? Ah, no, right, I can't because I am not a trained assassin and that's not what I am used to - but if I were it would be fine. WHAT?!

Anyway, Sherlock knows all this, but works very hard to push them back together and basically ensure his best friend stays with a woman who is dangerous. What best friend would do that? Especially when, at the beginning when John found out, he seemed to have pretty much made his mind up about leaving Mary - his moral compass was still working there.

Absurd.

And also, because I can't wrap my head around it - I cannot possibly believe she had no other options but to shoot Sherlock. So let's think: she is standing there, threatening CAM for god knows what reason when she could have just shot him like she had intended to do, and then Sherlock shows up.
If she had said to him, Sherlock, I need your help! that's all it would have needed - surely Sherlock wouldn't have gone - no no, I need to call the police, you bad woman!
He would have kept his mouth shut, even with John, if that was what was needed until the case was resolved. He's done much more than that in the episode, you can't tell me he wouldn't have.

But no, she doesn't do this - she shoots him. Because he was a witness. Yeah. So, you don't want Sherlock as a witness, but you happily let CAM - and I repeat, CAM! A blackmailer who already has all sort of dirt about you - see that you shot Sherlock, and walk away. REALLY?! CAM IS A PREFERABLE WITNESS?!?
And don't even get me started on the fact that CAM could have told John straightaway if he had wanted to (why didn't he?) - so the 'I shot you so he wouldn't find out' seems like a moot point to me in that context.
I am not saying that she should have shot CAM because then John would have been implied etc, but shooting Sherlock!? To me she deliberately chose the most complicated option.

And I am also hearing that 'she shot Sherlock because otherwise he would have told John'; this, to me, implies she wanted him dead, because surely once he wakes up he sure as hell IS going to tell John then, so that makes your attempt to keep it under wraps useless, anyway. Right?

So many plot flaws, I just can't get my head around it. To me, this was an orchestrated trolling manouvre from Moffat, who wanted us to believe she was going to be out of the picture when actually she wasn't going to be. I love Sherlock but Steve has got to stop making things MAYBE happen, shout wolf when there is none, and start making shit happen FOR REAL.

Last edited by Ozma (January 14, 2014 9:02 am)

NotYourHousekeeperDear · January 14, 2014 9:22 am

My thoughts precisely Ozma! Thank you for articulating them so well!

Criosdan · January 14, 2014 9:25 am

Mary did not know that everything was inside CAMs head. Imagine, she shot him and the police would find everyhing about her in his house. That was a risk she would not take.

Hera · January 14, 2014 9:56 am

I also don't believe that Mary had no choice. She did have more than one choice - logically. But she didn't think long about what to do. She reacted quite fast, as she probably was trained to. Maybe in that moment, she felt like she had no choice but to nearly-kill Sherlock.

Mary is a very flawed person - more flawed than Sherlock or John together, in my personal opinion - but we can't forget about the fact that John already loves her. Probably he wouldn't have fallen in love with her after all that happened, but now it's different. She's his wife. She carries his child. Yes, John tries to take a step back and think of her as a client, but he isn't able to see her in a neutral way. She's the love of his life. (Apart from Sherlock, of course, the platonic love of his life. ;) )

He seems to understand her motifs even if many of us don't and, again, he loves her. His moral compass doesn't work for people he loves. Can you imagine him leaving Sherlock no matter what he does? I can't.

I consider myself a person with high moral "standards", but for my husband I would do almost anything... I would try anything to get him back on the right track if he ever did something wrong. Maybe that's what John's doing: turning her into the person he fell in love with by staying with her. He knows she has the potential to be a very good person, so he tries.

Davina · January 14, 2014 11:19 am

I agree with you Ozma with what do appear to be gaping plot holes. All I can hope is that these may be proved otherwise in subsequent episodes. I just don't get the shooting Sherlock scene. What was she doing there in the first place? What was she hoping to get from or do to CAM? Why, when Sherlock appeared, was it necessary to shoot him?

Someone mentioned about 'Mary' being an orphan. Unlikely, but possible. It is all part of her back story for her new adopted identity. It is her way of explaining a lack of relatives.

belis · January 14, 2014 11:21 am

I still like Mary. She reminds me a bit of the Black Widow character from the Avengers. Her morality and 'lifestyle' choices are questionable at best but she has many positive features. I would love to find out more about her past and what has lead her on the path she has chosen.

My own morality compass doesn't approve of killing people under most circumstances. Deffinitely not on 'freelance' basis. I still think though that Mary maybe a very good choice of companion for John.

In my headcanon John has some subtle 'psychopatic' tendencies of his own. Conciously or not he is attracted to those traits in other people. I think that he knew all along that there is something 'different' about her. An inkling that he decided not to question any further. Why would he for example let his pregnant wife go with him to the drugs den in a dogy part of town and leave her alown in the car? It's as if he knew perfectly well that she can hold her own.I wonder how much of his upset when he finds out is coused by true shock and suprise and how much by a realisation of the extent of his denial.

SolarSystem · January 14, 2014 11:32 am

Criosdan wrote:
Mary did not know that everything was inside CAMs head. Imagine, she shot him and the police would find everyhing about her in his house. That was a risk she would not take.

So, why was she there then? Did she want to talk him into handing over the files she presumed he had on her? Or did she want to kill him?

Criosdan · January 14, 2014 11:34 am

SolarSystem wrote:
Criosdan wrote:
Mary did not know that everything was inside CAMs head. Imagine, she shot him and the police would find everyhing about her in his house. That was a risk she would not take.
So, why was she there then? Did she want to talk him into handing over the files she presumed he had on her? Or did she want to kill him?

I guess she wanted to get the files and used the gun to threaten CAM. She kind of panicked when Sherlock appeared. And of course she knew John couldn'be far away.

SusiGo · January 14, 2014 11:39 am

I had the same thought. She does not know about his mind palace and therefore must assume that CAM has documents/files on her.

SolarSystem · January 14, 2014 11:44 am

But being a former agent for the CIA, shouldn't she know that even if he handed out those presumed documents, that probably wouldn't solve the problem for good? She should know that much about him.

LoveBug54 · January 14, 2014 12:21 pm

Ozema, I agree with you! I can only hope there is some rational explanation later for some of it. After all, it seemed very stupid of Mycroft to tell Moriarty things about Sherlock then even let him go, but we found later it was all part of his and Sherlock's plan to defeat him.

Mary is an orphan because Canon!Mary is an orphan. Also, we are supposed to think the shooter is Smallwood because of the perfume and because in the Canon Milverton is killed by one of his victims. But Moffet likes to put his own twist on the Canon, thus Mary becomes the shooter instead. But did he have to give her the background of a killer to do that? He could have made up some other, less monstrous, background for her and she would have been a much more sympathetic character who takes up a gun out of desperation. But, Moffat has the bad habit of coming to his conclusions and twisting plot points to fit. I know it's anathema in this fandom to criticize The Mofftis but sometimes it's justified when the writing isn't making sense.

If you want to see a brilliant and more faithful adaptation of this story check out Jeremy Brett' s The Master Blackmailer.

Ozma · January 14, 2014 12:50 pm

There won't be an explanation, not for this. I think this whole thing isn't over - look at how many of us are upset/confused/angry at her - she needs to redeem herself, because technically she is not a villain. Look at what they made Sherlock do to pay for having hurt John so much. I do believe they didn't put all this in the story just for it to become a footnote in John and Mary's happy life together.
But- they will not expand on this, I don't think.

As for the previous point, about her not being able to kill CAM because she didn't know of his mind palace - what was her plan then?
Can you honestly believe she waited MONTHS after he sent her those texts and put John into a bloody bonfire, befriended his PA, and possibly other things, just to throw all this down the toilet by just strolling into his office one day and then panicking about being found out? No, come on.

What did she intend to do?
And anyway…by shooting Sherlock she just added to CAM’s info about her and gave him more ammunition. COME.ON. Really? The first thing John does, THE VERY FIRST THING when he sees S on the floor is to bark, Who shot him!?

I thought she was supposed to be clever? Doesn’t seem like that to me?
Even CAM smirks at that. Even him.

This to me just looks like a plot device to make everything more dramatic. Anyone who writes fanfics has done it before – you want to add something for drama, something which sounds romantic and super angsty, and you do it even though you perfectly realise there are some points that don’t connect.

I don’t think Moffat can afford that. Come on. He is better than that.

sj4iy · January 14, 2014 1:13 pm

SolarSystem wrote:
But being a former agent for the CIA, shouldn't she know that even if he handed out those presumed documents, that probably wouldn't solve the problem for good? She should know that much about him.

That's normally not how blackmail works. Usually, it's a way of extorting money or favor and in exchange for the return of the sensitive documents. That's why Sherlock was acting as an in-between. But CAM overplayed his hand. One can only do that sort of thing for so long before they reasonably can expect retaliation.

sj4iy · January 14, 2014 1:22 pm

LoveBug54 wrote:
Ozema, I agree with you! I can only hope there is some rational explanation later for some of it. After all, it seemed very stupid of Mycroft to tell Moriarty things about Sherlock then even let him go, but we found later it was all part of his and Sherlock's plan to defeat him.

Mary is an orphan because Canon!Mary is an orphan. Also, we are supposed to think the shooter is Smallwood because of the perfume and because in the Canon Milverton is killed by one of his victims. But Moffet likes to put his own twist on the Canon, thus Mary becomes the shooter instead. But did he have to give her the background of a killer to do that? He could have made up some other, less monstrous, background for her and she would have been a much more sympathetic character who takes up a gun out of desperation. But, Moffat has the bad habit of coming to his conclusions and twisting plot points to fit. I know it's anathema in this fandom to criticize The Mofftis but sometimes it's justified when the writing isn't making sense.

If you want to see a brilliant and more faithful adaptation of this story check out Jeremy Brett' s The Master Blackmailer.

Moffat didn't overplay his hand. He wants the controversy surrounding Mary. THAT'S what creates drama. Most people feel that she isn't monstrous despite her background, and that she was simply pushed into a situation with no way out. I don't focus on the fact that she used to be an intelligence agent...I focus on the fact that she stopped all that years before and became reformed in order to live a normal life. I don't want faithful...I want to see the twists and turns. Faithful is boring...I've read the stories, I know what happens. If I wanted faithful, I could easily go back and read them again. This was supposed to make people feel uneasy...to make them think outside the box. The mixed reaction is on purpose, because the best thing you can do is have people discussing this long past the episode's air date.

Ozma · January 14, 2014 1:32 pm

@sj4iy - I agree with you, I don't want boring, I don't want dull, I don't necessarily want faithful it it becomes predictable. I love twists and turns and I love that this series makes my heart beat fast when I'm watching it.

But it's also good - like you said - that we express our different thoughts as getting the fans talking until the next series is their stroke of genius.
I am just finding it hard to come to terms with some of the things that were included in this episode - and I do think that some of them are far fetched and a little absurd.

Doesn't mean I am going to stop watching - unless it becomes boring

Aytoun · January 14, 2014 1:41 pm

Ozma wrote:
There won't be an explanation, not for this. I think this whole thing isn't over - look at how many of us are upset/confused/angry at her - she needs to redeem herself, because technically she is not a villain. Look at what they made Sherlock do to pay for having hurt John so much. I do believe they didn't put all this in the story just for it to become a footnote in John and Mary's happy life together.
But- they will not expand on this, I don't think.

As for the previous point, about her not being able to kill CAM because she didn't know of his mind palace - what was her plan then?
Can you honestly believe she waited MONTHS after he sent her those texts and put John into a bloody bonfire, befriended his PA, and possibly other things, just to throw all this down the toilet by just strolling into his office one day and then panicking about being found out? No, come on.

What did she intend to do?
And anyway…by shooting Sherlock she just added to CAM’s info about her and gave him more ammunition. COME.ON. Really? The first thing John does, THE VERY FIRST THING when he sees S on the floor is to bark, Who shot him!?

I thought she was supposed to be clever? Doesn’t seem like that to me?
Even CAM smirks at that. Even him.

This to me just looks like a plot device to make everything more dramatic. Anyone who writes fanfics has done it before – you want to add something for drama, something which sounds romantic and super angsty, and you do it even though you perfectly realise there are some points that don’t connect.

I don’t think Moffat can afford that. Come on. He is better than that.

I agreed completely with your analysis of the shooting scene. Whatever we think about Mary and I do see her as a villain, shooting Sherlock to wound and letting CAM witness it and live just doesn't make sense. Her only real option when Sherlock walked in was to kill them both - not that I wanted Sherlock dead but what she actually does is only for dramatic effect. It just doesn't hold together as logical storytelling.

Last edited by Aytoun (January 14, 2014 1:44 pm)