true, I don't know - but that would certainly redeem her, and would be way better than her just dying randomly for another cause. I suspect it would probably also help John cope, to think that Mary has really turned her life around and become the person he thought she was.

not sure if anyone posted this yet, but.. Mary is an ex assasin who is in love with the Doctor... Holy crap! Mary's real name is River Song... We got the Doctor Who crossover we've always wanted and didn't even realize it.  JK

shezza wrote:

Well she did work for the CIA but Magnussen tells us that eventually she left government work and started "freelancing", which means killing people for money which is morally despicable any way you put it. 

I do like her character but that doesn't erase the fact that Mary should be in jail, not living a cosy lifestyle with a loving hubby and a baby on the way... and the fact that she didn't really deserve Sherlock's keeping of his "last vow" - basically ending his own life for her (and John, of course. It's all about John.)

that's the thing. It's all about John. I think at the end Mary was really a 'case' for Sherlock, and all he did, everything, was only for John. Because that's where his happiness was, and therefore Sherlock had to protect that.

But, if John had said 'it's fine, I don't care about her anymore', Sherlock wouldn't have sacrificed himself.

In the scene where Mary and Sherlock tell John he fell for Mary because....yeah psycopaths... whatever ....thats what he likes...Hmmmm
Does John have some kind of superpower or ESP we don't know about because otherwise ... how did he know that was what Mary was like??

We obviously must assume that for the last five years , and since she met John especially , she has been a perfectly normal somewhat boring bread baking cat loving part time nurse. Faultlessly . That is the woman John fell for.
He had absolutely no idea she was a lieing highly trained stone cold agent/assasin for hire murdering psycopath. This seems a plot fault, but idk, how did John know. Did she smell of 6 year old danger and not claire de lune perhaps?


Apparently her crimes , murders , were so bad they had Magnussen chuckling with glee, she seemed almost proud of her shooting and that she would/should goto prison for life.hmmmm
For me this seems the complete opposite of everything Sherlock and John are about.

The opening scenes where Johns dreaming of Sherlock and is a little in need of his danger fix , also contradict him getting any kinda danger buzz's from Mary.
Eitherway I think that scene was intended to show that John is already a little unhappy in his marriage, and this huge betrayal from Mary should of been the end of it, but No,, he just doesn't look at the files and sweeps it under the rug.
Whoa denial , I don't get it all but ok, love isn't sane or logical and John obv. wants to believe he loves his wife.

Sherlock.. wow idk I think he must of looked up on the internet, What to do when your best friends marriage is in trouble...saw try to get them to resolve it, and just gone with that. I can't explain his...she saved me comment any other way. She did kill him , and she did look unhappy when she learnt he had recovered.

So ok maybe John and Sherlock are in denial about Mary and letting this go for now .
But why is Mycroft? He must know who shot his little brother, why is he letting some lieing , manipulative, stone cold killer that means nothing to him get away with it? Also she is a danger to him as was shown in this plot as well as to Sherlock! Further , why is nobody even investigating who shot Sherlock?  Not even Lestrade? Isn't Sherlock going to look a bit dim being unable to solve the case of his own shooting?
So hmmmmm.
I do not understand at all why people feel sorry for Mary. Why?
How many people get scared the person they love might stop loving them...all of us sometime hmmm? We don't then immediately think..ok well I will start killing people to stop that ...she had plenty of options open to her, but she reverted to type . Murder.So she will/could/would kill again at any time and anyone.
Incidentally I wonder how she knew Magnusson ...in the plot he is using her to get to john to get to sherlock so he can get to Mycroft right! But as she knows Magnusson and about the blackmail , Magnusson must have contacted her for some reason ? Was she perhaps supposed to nick Mycrofts laptop...idk.?

Eitherway she must go .
I think she will prob die in chilbirth as is the most popular canon theory
Personally I just want John to wake the heck up and just choose No.

Last edited by lil (January 14, 2014 3:12 am)

lil wrote:

In the scene where Mary and Sherlock tell John he fell for Mary because....yeah psycopaths... whatever ....thats what he likes...Hmmmm
Does John have some kind of superpower or ESP we don't know about because otherwise ... how did he know that was what Mary was like??

We obviously must assume that for the last five years , and since she met John especially , she has been a perfectly normal somewhat boring bread baking cat loving part time nurse. Faultlessly . That is the woman John fell for.
He had absolutely no idea she was a lieing highly trained stone cold agent/assasin for hire murdering psycopath. This seems a plot fault, but idk, how did John know. Did she smell of 6 year old danger and not claire de lune perhaps?


Apparently her crimes , murders , were so bad they had Magnussen chuckling with glee, she seemed almost proud of her shooting and that she would/should goto prison for life.hmmmm
For me this seems the complete opposite of everything Sherlock and John are about.

The opening scenes where Johns dreaming of Sherlock and is a little in need of his danger fix , also contradict him getting any kinda danger buzz's from Mary.
Eitherway I think that scene was intended to show that John is already a little unhappy in his marriage, and this huge betrayal from Mary should of been the end of it, but No,, he just doesn't look at the files and sweeps it under the rug.
Whoa denial , I don't get it all but ok, love isn't sane or logical and John obv. wants to believe he loves his wife.

Sherlock.. wow idk I think he must of looked up on the internet, What to do when your best friends marriage is in trouble...saw try to get them to resolve it, and just gone with that. I can't explain his...she saved me comment any other way. She did kill him , and she did look unhappy when she learnt he had recovered.

So ok maybe John and Sherlock are in denial about Mary and letting this go for now .
But why is Mycroft? He must know who shot his little brother, why is he letting some lieing , manipulative, stone cold killer that means nothing to him get away with it? Also she is a danger to him as was shown in this plot as well as to Sherlock! Further , why is nobody even investigating who shot Sherlock?  Not even Lestrade? Isn't Sherlock going to look a bit dim being unable to solve the case of his own shooting?
So hmmmmm.
I do not understand at all why people feel sorry for Mary. Why?
How many people get scared the person they love might stop loving them...all of us sometime hmmm? We don't then immediately think..ok well I will start killing people to stop that ...she had plenty of options open to her, but she reverted to type . Murder.So she will/could/would kill again at any time and anyone.
Incidentally I wonder how she knew Magnusson ...in the plot he is using her to get to john to get to sherlock so he can get to Mycroft right! But as she knows Magnusson and about the blackmail , Magnusson must have contacted her for some reason ? Was she perhaps supposed to nick Mycrofts laptop...idk.?

Eitherway she must go .
I think she will prob die in chilbirth as is the most popular canon theory
Personally I just want John to wake the heck up and just choose No.

You've put in words a lot of what I've been thinking. I'm having a hard time suspending my disbelief that Mary's lies wouldn't be a deal-breaker for John. Maybe if she weren't pregnant it would have been easier for him to walk away. Well just have to see what Moffat comes up with for the next series.
 

LoveBug54 wrote:

lil wrote:

In the scene where Mary and Sherlock tell John he fell for Mary because....yeah psycopaths... whatever ....thats what he likes...Hmmmm
Does John have some kind of superpower or ESP we don't know about because otherwise ... how did he know that was what Mary was like??

We obviously must assume that for the last five years , and since she met John especially , she has been a perfectly normal somewhat boring bread baking cat loving part time nurse. Faultlessly . That is the woman John fell for.
He had absolutely no idea she was a lieing highly trained stone cold agent/assasin for hire murdering psycopath. This seems a plot fault, but idk, how did John know. Did she smell of 6 year old danger and not claire de lune perhaps?


Apparently her crimes , murders , were so bad they had Magnussen chuckling with glee, she seemed almost proud of her shooting and that she would/should goto prison for life.hmmmm
For me this seems the complete opposite of everything Sherlock and John are about.

The opening scenes where Johns dreaming of Sherlock and is a little in need of his danger fix , also contradict him getting any kinda danger buzz's from Mary.
Eitherway I think that scene was intended to show that John is already a little unhappy in his marriage, and this huge betrayal from Mary should of been the end of it, but No,, he just doesn't look at the files and sweeps it under the rug.
Whoa denial , I don't get it all but ok, love isn't sane or logical and John obv. wants to believe he loves his wife.

Sherlock.. wow idk I think he must of looked up on the internet, What to do when your best friends marriage is in trouble...saw try to get them to resolve it, and just gone with that. I can't explain his...she saved me comment any other way. She did kill him , and she did look unhappy when she learnt he had recovered.

So ok maybe John and Sherlock are in denial about Mary and letting this go for now .
But why is Mycroft? He must know who shot his little brother, why is he letting some lieing , manipulative, stone cold killer that means nothing to him get away with it? Also she is a danger to him as was shown in this plot as well as to Sherlock! Further , why is nobody even investigating who shot Sherlock? Not even Lestrade? Isn't Sherlock going to look a bit dim being unable to solve the case of his own shooting?
So hmmmmm.
I do not understand at all why people feel sorry for Mary. Why?
How many people get scared the person they love might stop loving them...all of us sometime hmmm? We don't then immediately think..ok well I will start killing people to stop that ...she had plenty of options open to her, but she reverted to type . Murder.So she will/could/would kill again at any time and anyone.
Incidentally I wonder how she knew Magnusson ...in the plot he is using her to get to john to get to sherlock so he can get to Mycroft right! But as she knows Magnusson and about the blackmail , Magnusson must have contacted her for some reason ? Was she perhaps supposed to nick Mycrofts laptop...idk.?

Eitherway she must go .
I think she will prob die in chilbirth as is the most popular canon theory
Personally I just want John to wake the heck up and just choose No.

You've put in words a lot of what I've been thinking. I'm having a hard time suspending my disbelief that Mary's lies wouldn't be a deal-breaker for John. Maybe if she weren't pregnant it would have been easier for him to walk away. Well just have to see what Moffat comes up with for the next series.
 

Agreed!

sj4iy wrote:

I don't feel sorry for Mary...I empathize with her.  Not the same thing.  Meaning that, if I were in her situation, I would do what she has done.  Most criminals don't become criminals because they are evil...they become criminals because they have no choice.  If she really is an orphan, and I think that she is, that would say a lot about who she is and why she has done what she has done.  The fact that she has tried to change her life and turn it around says a lot about her character, because that is something that is extremely, extremely hard to do for people in her situation.  It's not about whether or not you would ever become an assassin in the first place...it's about what you would do if you HAD been an assassin and don't want to be one anymore.  That's why I like her.  She made a change in her life for the better.  Most people never do that.

There are call-backs to Soo Lin Yao here as well. Sherlock was (for Season 1 Sherlock) very empathetic towards her plight and her desire to better herself and get herself out of a situation she'd virtually been forced into.

We don't know Mary's backstory like we learned Soo Lin Yao's so we've no idea how she ended up where she did. We only know that she's worked very fucking hard to carve out a new life for herself in the past five years and she saw that threatened, first by Magnussen and then by Sherlock when he saw her there ready to murder CAM.

She was cornered prey and she lashed out.

This is why I don't understand people who don't understand why Sherlock was so quick to forgive her. He understood her and he empathised with her.

lil wrote:

lil wrote:

@S4jiy...Apart from the fact that Mycroft knows everything..
The fact that Mary/John have a large domestic, at exactly the same time that Sherlock gets shot, and the fact that Sherlock and John are lieing about what happened and are protecting the shootera nd the fact that Sherlock s first word on waking was Mary...the fact that Sherlock would only protect John and hmmm maybe Mary...
Well it's looking like a very easy deduction for anyone , never mind Mycroft isn't it?


Mary may have tried to change...but she hasn't has she in the end.
Otherwise what is it Johns esp is picking up.
And what did her I will keep him in trouble comment mean at the end,?
Is she going to take John out contract killing to get his danger fix.....

 
The thing is she hasn't changed though, she must have been planning the murder for a very long time, thats why she cultivated the friendship with the receptionist, her matron of honour isn't even a real friend?

Yes , we don't know her background and maybe we would emphasize, but isnt that the abuse excuse? Bad things may have happened to her, but does that mean she can do worse to everyone else...I don't think so.

Thank you. Wholeheartedly agree.

lil wrote:

@S4jiy...Apart from the fact that Mycroft knows everything..

He doesn't, and we've seen Sherlock completely screw up his plans before.  If he knew 'everything', Sherlock wouldn't have been able to give away state secrets to terrorists in "Scandel".  Sherlock also knicked his very high security passcode card in "Hounds" and drugged him in this episode.  Just because he's smart and has a high-ranking job doesn't actually mean he's omniscient.

The fact that Mary/John have a large domestic, at exactly the same time that Sherlock gets shot, and the fact that Sherlock and John are lieing about what happened and are protecting the shootera nd the fact that Sherlock s first word on waking was Mary...the fact that Sherlock would only protect John and hmmm maybe Mary...
Well it's looking like a very easy deduction for anyone , never mind Mycroft isn't it?

How would he know?  It really wasn't that large.  John kicked a chair and they talked for a few minutes before Sherlock collapsed and was taken back to hospital.  Sherlock, John nor Mary certainly would have not said anything to Mycroft about it, so I'm still at a loss as to how he would actually know.

Mary may have tried to change...but she hasn't has she in the end.
Otherwise what is it Johns esp is picking up.
And what did her I will keep him in trouble comment mean at the end,?
Is she going to take John out contract killing to get his danger fix.....

Just because you change your job and your habits doesn't mean you change your personality.  Only certain type of people would be attracted to that sort of work in the first place, and Mary was that sort of person, obviously.  John was attracted to that.

And she did change.  Tell me: what exactly was she, or anyone else, supposed to do when faced with a man like Magnussen?  Someone who ruins peoples' lives for power, who can make up anything he likes and prints it in a newspaper the next day.  Who is untouchable by the law.  Like Magnussen said...he didn't need proof, he worked in news.  Even the prospect of ruination like that could make the squeakiest-clean preacher turn into a killer.  Mary's mistake wasn't that she tried to kill Magnussen, or even that she shot Sherlock...it was that she was so scared of losing John that she tried to take care of it herself instead of trusting Sherlock to help her.  It's a completely understandable fear, since she does nearly lose him.  And it's completely understandable that she wouldn't trust Sherlock, because people in her line of work rarely trust anyone.  The fact that she could ever learn to trust John enough to love and marry him goes a long way towards showing her rehabilitation.  Like John said...her past is her problem.  He doesn't want to focus on it, and wants to move forward.

Last edited by sj4iy (January 14, 2014 5:18 am)

Wholocked wrote:

I think the idea that Mycroft would have deduced it all because he is even smarter than Sherlock is flawed. To deduce her, Mycroft would have had to care to do so. I really don't see him bothering.

Basically this.  To Mycroft, Mary was just the wife of his brother's best friend.  She really wouldn't have come up on his radar.  And Mycroft's not the type to go searching for his brother's would-be murderer under any circumstances.  So yeah...he just wouldn't care either way.

And of course, there would be nothing to glean from even hearing about a fight at Baker Street, because that place doesn't stay quiet even in the best of times.

Last edited by sj4iy (January 14, 2014 5:30 am)