BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Janine and...transport

b2s · January 13, 2014 10:34 pm

Victoire wrote:
I didn't believe in the true romance due to the story in the canon, but I must say that I am slightly worried due to this cottage in Sussex Downs, which is exactly where Sherlock retires. I hope they won't consider this as a possibility to have a happy and conventional ending when they stop with the series...

That would ruin the whole series for me

Victoire · January 13, 2014 10:35 pm

b2s wrote:
Victoire wrote:
I didn't believe in the true romance due to the story in the canon, but I must say that I am slightly worried due to this cottage in Sussex Downs, which is exactly where Sherlock retires. I hope they won't consider this as a possibility to have a happy and conventional ending when they stop with the series...
That would ruin the whole series for me

Same for me.

Ozma · January 13, 2014 10:37 pm

Victoire wrote:
b2s wrote:
Victoire wrote:
I didn't believe in the true romance due to the story in the canon, but I must say that I am slightly worried due to this cottage in Sussex Downs, which is exactly where Sherlock retires. I hope they won't consider this as a possibility to have a happy and conventional ending when they stop with the series...
That would ruin the whole series for me
Same for me.

Let's hope not!

Bruce Cook · January 14, 2014 12:46 am

I worry just a teeny-tiny bit about the line Janine said at the door of the hospital room. First, she and Sherlock established during the conversation that this lovely young lady had slept in the same bed with Sherlock . . . but they never did the wild monkey dance.

I mean, damn, I was ready to get crazy with her when she walked into the kitchen wearing nothing but a shirt while she proudly displayed the kind of legs Helen of Troy must have had if her face actually launched a thousand ships.

(This explains my choice of avatars, of course, but never mind that now . . . )

Here's the part that troubles me. At the door of the hospital room, Janine says, "I know what kind of man you are, Sherlock. But we could have still been friends."

What did she mean? They agreed they were "okay" because they'd both done self-serving things that involved lies and deception. I think her feelings for him were real, but he used her feelings for his own purposes. That killed the possibility of friendship.

However, she spent the night in bed with Sherlock . . . and he didn’t make love to her. So she “knows what kind of man you are, Sherlock. But we could have still been friends." She could accept what he did not do to her body – but she couldn’t accept what he did do her to heart.

Folks, I don’t think Sherlock Holmes is gay. The simplest answer to this question is that Janine mistakenly does think he is. And if any man is stronge enough to resist the temptations of the flesh for both moral and logical reasons, Sherlock Holmes is that man.

Feel free to tell me I’m stuffed completely full of fertilizer, folks. Read my signature below to know how much I value a good debate.

Last edited by Bruce Cook (January 14, 2014 12:50 am)

Ozma · January 14, 2014 1:00 am

Bruce Cook wrote:
And if any man is stronge enough to resist the temptations of the flesh for both moral and logical reasons, Sherlock Holmes is that man.

Feel free to tell me I’m stuffed completely full of fertilizer, folks. Read my signature below to know how much I value a good debate.

sorry but, what kind of moral and logical reasons are these? He didn't sleep with her, because he felt bad since he was deceiving her? But yet he thought nothing of tricking her into thinking that they were together and even fricking fake-proposing to her just to further his own plan?

As a woman, the second would hurt me much more if I were to be honest with you. With the first, like Jeanine says, at least she would have gotten to sleep with a hunky crazy detective

Where are his morals here? Or in other words - what are really his motives for not going all the way in his deception - if he is not in fact gay? I really don't think he was in any way worried about preserving her carnal treasure

Last edited by Ozma (January 14, 2014 1:01 am)

Ozma · January 14, 2014 1:03 am

And I am not trying to suggest Sherlock is gay.. just that he doesn't swing any way - sex and carnal pleasure are not what he seeks, but rather having a heart full of unconditional love for his best friend

*the end, butterflies, bunnies and glitter all around*

Regina Alexandra · January 14, 2014 1:08 am

There seemed to have been a lot of merriment coming from the bathroom whilst John was waiting in disbelief. Also there are many, many things two people can do and not consummate the relationship.
Remember Bill Clinton?

shezza · January 14, 2014 1:09 am

I think she simply meant she knew what kind of man he was - in her words, a "back-stabbing, heartless, manipulative bastard". She's just being wistful about the sincere, trusting relationship that could have been but never was (in Sherlock's plans).

Ozma · January 14, 2014 1:20 am

Regina Alexandra wrote:
There seemed to have been a lot of merriment coming from the bathroom whilst John was waiting in disbelief. Also there are many, many things two people can do and not consummate the relationship.
Remember Bill Clinton?

yes, but she didn't specify 'we didn't have sex'. I think with her line about 'just once would have been nice', Mofftiss are trying to be elegant while telling us that really there was very little that was sexual about the two....

because, really, why would Sherlock be ok with...err...oral entertainment, but not with the rest? It wouldn't make a difference to him, so if he was willing to do one he'd be willing to do the other too.

Last edited by Ozma (January 14, 2014 1:22 am)

kazza474 · January 14, 2014 1:34 am

Ozma wrote:
Bruce Cook wrote:
And if any man is stronge enough to resist the temptations of the flesh for both moral and logical reasons, Sherlock Holmes is that man.

Feel free to tell me I’m stuffed completely full of fertilizer, folks. Read my signature below to know how much I value a good debate.
sorry but, what kind of moral and logical reasons are these? He didn't sleep with her, because he felt bad since he was deceiving her? But yet he thought nothing of tricking her into thinking that they were together and even fricking fake-proposing to her just to further his own plan?

As a woman, the second would hurt me much more if I were to be honest with you. With the first, like Jeanine says, at least she would have gotten to sleep with a hunky crazy detective

Where are his morals here? Or in other words - what are really his motives for not going all the way in his deception - if he is not in fact gay? I really don't think he was in any way worried about preserving her carnal treasure

Having sex is the leading cause of many diseases, protected or unprotected.
The world is full of STD's as it is, why would Sherlock risk having any kind of affliction spread to himself?
And then there is the possibility of actual conception, again protected or unprotected makes no difference in some cases.

Morally, Sherlock would not want any other complications arising from this coupling; the ruse was plain and simply to gain access to CAM's office etc.

Whether or not the woman in this felt 'hurt' by anything, Sherlock would be unaware of this and frankly would not even consider this something to ponder.
That is his way.

There is nothing in this that points to anyone's sexual orientation; sex was the furtherest consideration from their minds.

Bruce Cook · January 14, 2014 2:52 am

Holy crap. I managed to stimulate several wonderful replies without getting a single one that actually disagreed with me. We all seem to agree that Sherlock slept with Janine -- but he didn't have sex with her.

I hate the term "slept together". Hookers don't sleep with their clients – they have sex with them. Married people rarely have sex with each other – but they "sleep together" every night.

I think we should call a spade a spade, folks. It would clear up a lot of confusion.

For example, Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky didn't "sleep together" or "have sex" – according to the President of the United States of America. They just shared a cigar in a manner that probably did more to discourage smoking in America than all those anti-smoking commercials combined.

Okay, back to the topic. (Wait . . . what was the topic?)

Oh, right. Did Sherlock "get lucky"?

I'm pretty sure the dialog between Sherlock and Janine specified that sex was not had by them that night. Or any other night.

Having been young once (and married twice), I feel qualified to say that Sherlock's remark – "I was saving it for our marriage" – means he and Janine didn't make the "personal connection" they referred to so delicately during the discussion. Janine nailed this down when she said, "Just once would have been nice."

Her comment is a great example of innuendo, a Latin term which means "an allusive or oblique remark or hint, typically a suggestive or disparaging one."

In other words, it was a college educated way of saying politely that Sherlock and Janine just "slept together". Period. Nothing more.

So, Sherlock doesn't seem to have the kind of overwhelming impulses which has led romantically inclined gentlemen like myself astray many times in their lives. Damn, I envy him. I used to believe in the old adage which states, "Better to have loved and lost than never to have loved at all."

Hindsight seems to indicate that "never to have loved at all" might not be so bad. A failed marriage doesn't seem better than no marriage at all. Maybe I should have employed more careful observations and logical deductions before I picked the women I fell in love with.

That, of course, is ridiculous. We don't pick the people we fall in love with – even though we do pick the people we marry. But our choices are not governed by our heads – they're governed by our hearts. And there are no brain cells in our hearts. That would seem to be the cause of the problem.

Last edited by Bruce Cook (January 14, 2014 2:57 am)

lindyhopper883 · January 14, 2014 3:45 am

The Janine story was probably the one part of the episode that really got to me. I know the fake engagement was right out of cannon, but the way Sherlock treated Janine was pretty awful. The canon books are full of what would now be considered sexism but was acceptable then, I just think that maybe the writers could have modernised their interpretation so that Sherlock wasn't such an ass. I feel like as a modern day woman I should be appaled at how Sherlock treated Janine. And I was. But then the scene ended with shirtless Benedict Cumberbatch and I forgot my anger... (Oh the irony!)

Bruce Cook · January 14, 2014 4:00 am

Wow. Watching this show as a man is obviously very different from watching it as a woman. But not completely different. And talking about it with folks of the opposite gender is absolutely delightful.

Thanks!

Last edited by Bruce Cook (January 14, 2014 4:02 am)

NotYourHousekeeperDear · January 14, 2014 6:32 am

I would have loved to be a fly on the wall in Sherlock's bedroom. How did Sherlock get Janine to sleep over but not sleep with her and not blow his cover?

b2s · January 14, 2014 7:46 am

NotYourHousekeeperDear wrote:
I would have loved to be a fly on the wall in Sherlock's bedroom. How did Sherlock get Janine to sleep over but not sleep with her and not blow his cover?

Migraine, withdrawl symptoms, herpes....

anjaH_alias · January 14, 2014 7:49 am

NotYourHousekeeperDear wrote:
I would have loved to be a fly on the wall in Sherlock's bedroom. How did Sherlock get Janine to sleep over but not sleep with her and not blow his cover?

Did I miss something? I read it here several times that nothing has never happened in the bedroom. Okay, that night is not possible, but before? I mean why are you all so sure, they seem to be (faked) together for a longer time.

Last edited by anjaH_alias (January 14, 2014 7:50 am)

SusiGo · January 14, 2014 7:55 am

Sorry, guys, but I do not think he slept with her in any possible way. IMO she waited in his flat while he was out in the drug den. John finds him there early in the morning. Asleep. My idea was that he left the flat telling Janine he would be back later and she made herself comfortable in his shirt waiting for something more to happen. Being Sherlock he deduces she is still there when he comes back with John.

To me the dialogue in the hospital proves that they never had sex with each other.

Janine: Just once would have been nice.
Sherlock: I was waiting till we got married.

Schmiezi · January 14, 2014 7:59 am

SusiGo wrote:
To me the dialogue in the hospital proves that they never had sex with each other.

Janine: Just once would have been nice.
Sherlock: I was waiting till we got married.

I aslo think that these two lines basically end the discussion. Janine and Sherlock were alone in the room, so no need to lie about it. Nothing happened, end of the story.

Last edited by Schmiezi (January 14, 2014 7:59 am)

anjaH_alias · January 14, 2014 8:01 am

SusiGo wrote:
Sorry, guys, but I do not think he slept with her in any possible way. IMO she waited in his flat while he was out in the drug den. John finds him there early in the morning. Asleep. My idea was that he left the flat telling Janine he would be back later and she made herself comfortable in his shirt waiting for something more to happen. Being Sherlock he deduces she is still there when he comes back with John.

To me the dialogue in the hospital proves that they never had sex with each other.

Janine: Just once would have been nice.
Sherlock: I was waiting till we got married.

Oh, I really missed these lines, I thought they were somehow still talking about lying. That´s it, thanks.

zeratul · January 14, 2014 8:21 am

Well I guess he was out on every night, from the way she reacts on him telling he was working at night, like it happened before.