BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » What Sherlock did...

miriel68 · January 13, 2014 9:13 pm

What I mean: why Sherlock killed/ had to kill Magnusson. I know it was already mentioned in few threads, but I think it is an issue that deserves a separate discussion.I think there are several points to ponder:Did Sherlock's act was really necessary and therefore morally justifiable?Why exactly did he kill Magnusson? Was it only to protect John & Mary?When did he decide to kill him? (because it was a decision, not a spontaneous act)Did it change him somehow? Did it change our perception of him? I have my thoughts on all these questions, but I would like to know what are your impressions and opinions first.BTW: Magnusson's killing and afterwards was the only bit of the episode I was not entirely happy with MF performance as Watson. His voice when he said "Sherlock" while Magnusson was flicking his face was wrong, somehow, and his reaction to what Sherlock did rubbed me the wrong way.

Westwood! · January 13, 2014 10:19 pm

Interesting questions..I think Sherlock decided to kill Magnussen in the few moments after he realised his plan had crushed..when he stays still and lets Magnussen flick john's face..but he still waits Mycroft because John's the owner of the gun and he doesn't want John to be sospected as guilty.
The point is: was this murder his only choice?..was there another way to prevent CAM from interfering in John's life?..Maybe if he had asked Mycroft's help first?..I think his crime is morally justifiable only if there was no other way..and frankly in this moment I can't think of another way to protect John and his family..IMO the best thing would have been if Sherlock hadn't interfered when Mary was about to kill Magnussen..as he does in Canon..

anjaH_alias · January 13, 2014 10:37 pm

John and Mary would have been stringpuppets in Magnussen´s hand in future (flick the face). Like Sherlock and Mycroft, too. Or Lady Smallwood. And probably 100s of other people. Yet I don´t think he had killed him if there had been a real vault. He had found another solution then.

Regina Alexandra · January 13, 2014 10:54 pm

I think Sherlock assessed the situation that the only way to destroy the blackmail files was to destroy CAM. He had to act quickly whilst he had the opportunity therefore he became judge, jury, and the executioner. He was not about to ask for a ruling on crime and punishment from the European Union or Queen's counsel. He became a 'dragon slayer'.
If Sherlock had been found guilty of murder, could he have been pardoned by the Home Secretary?

RavenMorganLeigh · January 13, 2014 10:56 pm

One thing about that scene; he looked a lot like he knew his life was effectively over, after he pulled the trigger. The scene of Young Sherlock crying just ripped my heart out.

mujie · January 13, 2014 10:58 pm

From what I got, when the helicopters came, Sherlock realised something. It was all in Magnussen's mind. Without a proper archive, there was no evidence against him. And so, even though the entire world could know how evil Magnussen is, it would be impossible to bring him down via the justice system. Sherlock made a decision. To save himself or to protect many more people from Magnussen. Because only in that moment could he stop him. Tell me if I'm wrong. I may have misinterpreted something.

Ozma · January 13, 2014 11:03 pm

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
One thing about that scene; he looked a lot like he knew his life was effectively over, after he pulled the trigger. The scene of Young Sherlock crying just ripped my heart out.

well, because his life *was* over. I mean of course he did it in front of his brother because he knew that his brother wasn't going to shoot him right there and then, but he knew what the alternative was - the exile on the suicide mission in Eastern Europe.

And yes, of course he also knows that Mycroft is buying time by sending him away and that he will fight his case, but he also doesn't know what the outcome is going to be, and rightly so - we do see Mycroft having to really convince them just to even get them to send Sherlock away. So it could work, and it could not. He doesn't know.

But better he than John, is what he thinks.

Criosdan · January 14, 2014 7:51 am

Was there even another choice? There were no physical evidences against Magnussen. And if they would initiate a trail Magnussen would blackmail the judge, the jury and everyone who was involved.
Magnussen was far mor dangerous and evil than a usual murderer. Lord Smallwood even committed suicide. (It was in one newspaper)

Jacco111 · January 14, 2014 8:00 am

I think it was a heroic decision and completely in character. Holmes is someone who has a strong sense of justice and couldn't let a man like Magnussen escape.

In the story, Holmes also finds himself against the law, refusing to tell any details concerning the shooting of Milverton to Scotland Yard.

SusiGo · January 14, 2014 8:01 am

I think he makes the decision even earlier. After CAM has shown them his non-existing vaults and walks out Sherlock remains standing in front of the room. John asks if they have a plan B and leaves. Then you see Sherlock's face and he closes his eyes. From that moment on he remains outwardly impassive. I think he has realised that CAM's brain is the real threat so the brain has to be destroyed. And that he must be the one to do it.

Last edited by SusiGo (January 14, 2014 8:01 am)

anjaH_alias · January 14, 2014 8:04 am

Jipp.

miriel68 · January 14, 2014 8:13 am

I read some opinions (not here, in other forums) that Sherlock didn't have to kill Magnussen, that he could temporize and think of another ways of defeating him, but I do not agree. While he did what he did for John in the first place (the way he looked at John moments before he shot Magnussen is heartbreaking) IMO it was not his only motivation. M. said that S. made a mistake that will destroy EVERYONE he loves . At this point M. "owned" Mary, John AND Sherlock. He wasn't interested in Sherlock as such, however (differently to Moriarty). He was interested in owning Mycroft whose pressure point is Sherlock and he achieved his goal: we already know M. will do anything to protect his little brother (Christmas "declaration" was the last necessary reminder of this) and by having S. under his thumb Magnussen gained power over Mycroft. I am not sure S. would do what he did if it was ONLY for Mycroft, but I denitely think this it was an important factor in his decision, as well.

the_dancing_woman · January 14, 2014 8:44 am

Interesting thread!
I completely agree with those who state that Sherlock had no other option of stopping CAM. Had there been a vault, things would have looked differently, files can be destroyed.
But obvs it was all only in Magnussen's mind, and being in the position this man was in, it would have meant a life time of constant fear for John, Mary, Sherlock, Mycroft and many others. As Magnussen demonstrated when he asked to flick John's face and then his eye, he knows no mercy, didn't even see himself as evil and completely enjoyed the power he had over others. He would always have found new 'enjoyable' ways of tormenting John and Mary, and Sherlock, and Mycroft.

I didn't even blink when Sherlock shot him, murder or not, he deserved what he got. I was heartbroken for Sherlock right afterwards when I became aware of the consequences his act would/could entail, but I certainly would never hold it against him that he killed that man.
Magnussen was an outstanding villain, but to me he was just so incredibly appalling, I could barely stand some of his actions (like when he peed into the fireplace). I am glad he is gone.
I felt the same way about Milverton in the Holmes canon when the woman he'd blackmailed shot him and then stepped on his face in utter disgust.

Marva · January 14, 2014 8:53 am

Susi, what you say and this picture almost makes me cry!

This is so fascinating, while watching HLV for the first time I was mostly driven by the actions, now I start to get through to the underlying emotions which are truly overhelming.

On topic: I fully agree that shooting CAM was the only (!) solution. I was actually confused why Sherlock waited until Mycroft and the other witnesses arrived.

beekeeper · January 14, 2014 9:48 am

The tricky thing is this for me.

Mary IS a murderer. She "went freelance" which is, ethically, arguably entirely different to being a soldier. (I am nearly a pacifist but even I see the distinction here). She killed people for money and her fear is that this will become known and she will have to atone for this in some way-by losing John, by ending up prison, etc.

What is complex for me is- is this really something she should have been protected from? Really? And John? Does his right not to know the horrible and awful truth about his new wife really trump CAM's right to life, awful and revolting as CAM is?

I've only see the episode once, so I'm open to having missed something, but that's my first reading

SusiGo · January 14, 2014 10:00 am

I really love this episode but I have problems with Mary, tbh. There are other threads for this so just a few words.

I do think as I stated above that from his POV Sherlock has to kill CAM. He is a threat to Mycroft, John, and Mary, people that are important to him. He made a public vow and this is his way of being true to this vow.

But it is nevertheless hard for me to accept how Mary is presented, that we shall accept a multiple killer who practically killed Sherlock as John's loving wife and mother of his child. Well. This does not sit easy with me.

Last edited by SusiGo (January 14, 2014 10:01 am)

Harriet · January 14, 2014 10:04 am

It's like the writers went too far, right?

SolarSystem · January 14, 2014 10:07 am

SusiGo wrote:
I think he makes the decision even earlier. After CAM has shown them his non-existing vaults and walks out Sherlock remains standing in front of the room. John asks if they have a plan B and leaves. Then you see Sherlock's face and he closes his eyes. From that moment on he remains outwardly impassive. I think he has realised that CAM's brain is the real threat so the brain has to be destroyed. And that he must be the one to do it.

My thoughts exactly. Just look at his face... I'm sure that's the moment when he realises that there will be no other way. (And thanks for that beautiful and at the same time heartbreaking pic, Susi! )

As for the question if he had another choice or not: I think it was the only choice. At least if Sherlock's goal was to make sure that Mary and John would be protected from whatever information CAM might have had on Mary.
Of course if we agree on what beekeeper said, that Mary is a murderer and should be brought to justice... then of course killing CAM wouldn't have been necessary.

Btw, are we really sure that John didn't read what was on the stick? After watching it for the first time I thought that maybe he just said that, but in truth he had read it but doesn't want Mary to know. After watching it two more times I'm not so sure anymore.

SusiGo · January 14, 2014 10:08 am

Yes, in a way they did. A bad secret in her past, fine - drugs, fraud, killing on impulse ... but this is really hard to swallow.

SolarSystem · January 14, 2014 10:12 am

SusiGo wrote:
I really love this episode but I have problems with Mary, tbh. There are other threads for this so just a few words.

I do think as I stated above that from his POV Sherlock has to kill CAM. He is a threat to Mycroft, John, and Mary, people that are important to him. He made a public vow and this is his way of being true to this vow.

But it is nevertheless hard for me to accept how Mary is presented, that we shall accept a multiple killer who practically killed Sherlock as John's loving wife and mother of his child. Well. This does not sit easy with me.

Again, I agree. And I also have some difficulties with Sherlock and Mary both saying it's practically John's fault that he ended up with her, just because he chose her. And that she is the way she is because John chose her. Come on! She is like that because she decided, for whatever reasons, to be like that. John fell in love with her, right. And yes, it's right that he loves and needs "the thrill of the chase", the adventure... but this...? I don't really like how this part of the scene in 221B plays out...