BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » John? Out of character?

the_dancing_woman · January 13, 2014 10:11 am

Yes, I definitely see what you mean. I agree John had rather a lot to process over the course of those last few months leading up to that supposed final goodbye. Him crying at that moment or clinging to Sherlock in sheer despair would have seemed rather daft and out of character. I also guess he wasn't quite sure about the finality of this either. He watched his friend die in front of him and then mysteriously pop up again in a fancy restaurant two years later. He was most likely just thinking "final - oh yeah, of course". And if I remember correctly Sherlock never said it was going to be a last goodbye, he just mentioned being away for six months, didn't he?
I also think the redefinition of what their friendship is going to be like in the future is still ongoing. I somehow keep forgetting that Sherlock really was out of his life for two years!
Most importantly I think John will always be craving danger and adventure and thus will always be drawn into Sherlock's world and partake in his adventures, just like Canon-John does.

Last edited by the_dancing_woman (January 13, 2014 10:13 am)

kazza474 · January 13, 2014 10:17 am

Hera wrote:
Sherlock sacrificed his life for John. Sherlock came from the dead for John. - So something like that would be nice. Otherwise their relationship would be very unbalanced.

I love "BBC Sherlock" because they have an unusual relationship. Not because they are just "normal" friends who happen to solve crimes together now and then. For me, it's a love story. Not sexually, but in a brotherly way.

He sacrificed his life? Must have missed that bit. Yeah sure, his will power was urged on by thoughts of John, more of a writer's thing to add to please the fans than actually part of the character if you ask me. (must have a few waves at the fans, lol)
They have a bond where one complements the other in many ways, I know you've called that a platonic styled 'love' , I prefer the term complementary bond. But from what your post says, I assume you think they should be saying to each other " look, I cannot be me without having you in my life" . Is that what you mean? If so, I think they have both showed that they can in fact carry on without the other, they just are more effective working together and they understand each other better than most others do. That camaraderie really doesn't need expressions of 'what you mean to me' , does it?

Ozma · January 13, 2014 10:23 am

Hera wrote:
He sacrificed his life? Must have missed that bit.

err, he killed an unarmed, seemingly innocent man in front of the MI6 - in the best of options he would have been thrown to jail for a very long time.

Isn't that sacrificing his life?

Ozma · January 13, 2014 10:24 am

I get that John might have not believed Sherlock wasn't going to come back.

But Sherlock doesn't just say 'who knows'. Sherlock clearly says these words to John: 'Since it's unlikely that we will ever see each other again'...

kazza474 · January 13, 2014 10:29 am

Ozma wrote:
Hera wrote:
He sacrificed his life? Must have missed that bit.

err, he killed an unarmed, seemingly innocent man in front of the MI6 - in the best of options he would have been thrown to jail for a very long time.

Isn't that sacrificing his life?

But the man wasn't innocent was he? Nor did he raise the weapon to anyone else, so no need to shoot him.
As for sacrificing his life by going to jail, refer to the above sentence. We are talking about Sherlock Holmes who would have undoubtedly defended himself quite admirably in a court if need be.
So really, using Sherlock's eyes I can't see any sacrificing at all.

Hera · January 13, 2014 10:31 am

kazza474 wrote:
He sacrificed his life? Must have missed that bit.

Murdering someone and risking a very, very, very long stay prison? Yes, iny my opinion, he sacrificed his life. Look at Sherlock, he knows he is risking a lot, and if that isn't proof enough, look at Mycroft's reaction.

kazza474 wrote:
Yeah sure, his will power was urged on by thoughts of John, more of a writer's thing to add to please the fans than actually part of the character if you ask me. (must have a few waves at the fans, lol)

The scene is completely in line with everything in series 3. It's not the only scene showing Sherlock's love, so I don't think it's just a "fangirly" thing.

kazza474 wrote:
They have a bond where one complements the other in many ways, I know you've called that a platonic styled 'love' , I prefer the term complementary bond. But from what your post says, I assume you think they should be saying to each other " look, I cannot be me without having you in my life" . Is that what you mean? If so, I think they have both showed that they can in fact carry on without the other, they just are more effective working together and they understand each other better than most others do. That camaraderie really doesn't need expressions of 'what you mean to me' , does it?

No, it doesn't, I agree. By "show" I didn't mean the characters themselves expressing feelings for each other. Sorry, if it was confusing, English's not my first language. What I meant was that the show creators have to show us that John still needs Sherlock ... and not only for adventures, but that he needs him as a friend, even though he's got a family now. That's all I need.

Last edited by Hera (January 13, 2014 10:33 am)

Wholocked · January 13, 2014 10:32 am

kazza474 wrote:
Ozma wrote:
Hera wrote:
He sacrificed his life? Must have missed that bit.

err, he killed an unarmed, seemingly innocent man in front of the MI6 - in the best of options he would have been thrown to jail for a very long time.

Isn't that sacrificing his life?

But the man wasn't innocent was he? Nor did he raise the weapon to anyone else, so no need to shoot him.
As for sacrificing his life by going to jail, refer to the above sentence. We are talking about Sherlock Holmes who would have undoubtedly defended himself quite admirably in a court if need be.
So really, using Sherlock's eyes I can't see any sacrificing at all.

He's facing permanent-exile-unless-recalled in lieu of life imprisonment because Mycroft fought for it. How is that not sacrificing his life? Sure he's not dead, but the life he was leading is gone. He would have known there were going to be consequences to murdering a man in front of so many witnesses.

And no, we know the man wasn't innocent, but there was no proof of it. In a court room it wouldn't have gone well for Sherlock at all.

the_dancing_woman · January 13, 2014 10:35 am

kazza474 wrote:
Hera wrote:
Sherlock sacrificed his life for John. Sherlock came from the dead for John. - So something like that would be nice. Otherwise their relationship would be very unbalanced.

I love "BBC Sherlock" because they have an unusual relationship. Not because they are just "normal" friends who happen to solve crimes together now and then. For me, it's a love story. Not sexually, but in a brotherly way.
He sacrificed his life? Must have missed that bit. Yeah sure, his will power was urged on by thoughts of John, more of a writer's thing to add to please the fans than actually part of the character if you ask me. (must have a few waves at the fans, lol)

I think whatever Sherlock does in "Sherlock" is part of the character of this particular version of Sherlock Holmes. To me it seems Moffat and Gatiss have created their very own version of Sherlock Holmes while still leaning on to canon as far as the general storyline and all the many nods and hints to the original Holmes canon go. But I think that canon Sherlock Holmes and Sherlock-Sherlock Holmes are not to be mixed up that much, and I think it is their complete and utter right to create something slightly new and different here.
I understand if you are more of a traditionalist when it comes to Sherlock Holmes, which is fine. I have one in my close family too. I just don't like the general air of condescension that emanates from your posts. Those of us who like these new developments and how the writers strayed from the original source to create a little more warmhearted version of Sherlock Holmes are not necessarily all stupid little girls. It would be kind to bear that in mind...

Ozma · January 13, 2014 10:44 am

Wholocked wrote:
kazza474 wrote:
Ozma wrote:

err, he killed an unarmed, seemingly innocent man in front of the MI6 - in the best of options he would have been thrown to jail for a very long time.

Isn't that sacrificing his life?

But the man wasn't innocent was he? Nor did he raise the weapon to anyone else, so no need to shoot him.
As for sacrificing his life by going to jail, refer to the above sentence. We are talking about Sherlock Holmes who would have undoubtedly defended himself quite admirably in a court if need be.
So really, using Sherlock's eyes I can't see any sacrificing at all.
He's facing permanent-exile-unless-recalled in lieu of life imprisonment because Mycroft fought for it. How is that not sacrificing his life? Sure he's not dead, but the life he was leading is gone. He would have known there were going to be consequences to murdering a man in front of so many witnesses.

And no, we know the man wasn't innocent, but there was no proof of it. In a court room it wouldn't have gone well for Sherlock at all.

And he did it so that John couldn't do it - he sacrificed his own life so that John could carry on with his.

kazza474 · January 13, 2014 10:45 am

Wholocked wrote:
He's facing permanent-exile-unless-recalled in lieu of life imprisonment because Mycroft fought for it. How is that not sacrificing his life? Sure he's not dead, but the life he was leading is gone.

At the moment Sherlock shot CAM, there was no mention of exile (that Mycroft fought for) was there? So why would he believe he was making any kind of sacrifice as he pulled the trigger?

He would have known there were going to be consequences to murdering a man in front of so many witnesses.

And no, we know the man wasn't innocent, but there was no proof of it. In a court room it wouldn't have gone well for Sherlock at all.

Oh yes of course he knew there would be consequences, and once again he would have proved CAM's guilt in a court if need be. Whilst, according to CAM there were no files on his activities there would have been clues, results & victims of his dealings and probably even a few former employees who had some information to trade in return for their own freedom as they no longer had a mastermind protecting them from the law.

"Sacrificing" is way too strong a word for his actions and his intent in this scenario. He did what he did because it logically had to be done. It was the only solution to this problem.
Isn't that what Sherlock does? Do what logically needs to be done without worrying about other people's reactions.

Hera · January 13, 2014 10:58 am

He still murdered someone. He didn't kill him in selfdefense. He murdered him. Even Mycroft knows that there will be harsh consequences.

Ozma · January 13, 2014 11:09 am

Mycroft had mentioned the suicide mission just earlier that day at their parents’ house. Yes Sherlock thought the vault existed, but I don’t believe the killing CAM thing was spur of the moment, I think he had considered it as an ‘extreme’ plan B (and this is why he had asked John to bring his gun..), as he knew he had the option of the suicide plan (however ‘unforgiving’ as punishments go), whereas had John done it (because if he didn’t, his life was going to be hell) he would have lost much more in Sherlock’s eyes.

Sherlock didn’t feel like he had a lot to lose at that point – and also he knew he had Mycroft’s back up and knew he was going to fight for him. He was still going to lose A LOT, but in his eyes, not as much as John.

kazza474 · January 13, 2014 11:29 am

Ozma wrote:
Mycroft had mentioned the suicide mission just earlier that day at their parents’ house. Yes Sherlock thought the vault existed, but I don’t believe the killing CAM thing was spur of the moment, I think he had considered it as an ‘extreme’ plan B (and this is why he had asked John to bring his gun..), as he knew he had the option of the suicide plan (however ‘unforgiving’ as punishments go), whereas had John done it (because if he didn’t, his life was going to be hell) he would have lost much more in Sherlock’s eyes.

Sherlock didn’t feel like he had a lot to lose at that point – and also he knew he had Mycroft’s back up and knew he was going to fight for him. He was still going to lose A LOT, but in his eyes, not as much as John.

That's a bit more of a balanced summary than 'sacrificing his life'; however I would still debate whether Sherlock weighed up 'what will I lose as to what will John lose'. It became apparent rather quickly that another villain was trying the old switcheroo on 'who is the bad guy & who is the good guy' ( a downfall in writing in my eyes, to fall back on something already done in this show). So he decided to eliminate the problem so he didn't have to go through that whole 'proving of innocence' thing again I guess.
Let's face it, you all swallowed the fact that Sherlock was exonerated eventually from any wrong-doing with Moriarty's attempt to use this switcheroo thing and his plan was rather more elaborate & well set out to the point where the press & public believed Sherlock to be the bad guy. Yet now you say Sherlock couldn't prove his innocence in this one? Ahh the fickle fans sway at times don't they?

Hera · January 13, 2014 11:33 am

The thing is that Sherlock is not innocent. He just isn't. He killed someone and it wasn't in self-defense. There's nothing to prove. Maybe he wouldn't have to serve a lifetime in prison, but he still would have to go. Even Mycroft couldn't prevent (at least a while in) exile. (If it hadn't been for Moriarty.)

Maybe Sherlock didn't sacrifice his life, but he still sacrificed a lot. (Well, he was prepared to anyway.)

Last edited by Hera (January 13, 2014 11:38 am)

kazza474 · January 13, 2014 11:38 am

Hera wrote:
The thing is that Sherlock is not innocent. He just isn't. He killed someone and it wasn't in self-defense. There's nothing to prove. Maybe he wouldn't have to serve a lifetime in prison, but he still would have to go. Even Mycroft couldn't prevent (at least a while in) exile. (If it hadn't been for Moriarty.)

Yes how very, very convenient of Moriarty to pop up like he did, and the British Gov already know the ONLY person that could possibly handle him is Sherlock Holmes.
Very convenient to have a 'skill' that no-one else has and may possibly be needed sometime isn't it?

*chortles*

Maybe Sherlock didn't sacrifice his life, but he still sacrificed a lot. (Well, he was prepared to anyway.)

I don't think he saw it as a sacrifice; not if he had a failsafe, convenient 'problem' that could crop up at a moment's notice.

Last edited by kazza474 (January 13, 2014 11:40 am)

anjaH_alias · January 13, 2014 11:41 am

Mattlocked wrote:
I came to my mind, for a second: What if John runs after the plane right now?
And I would have hated it.
Though I would like to have seen an embrace at least, I think they did the scene quite well. Have to watch it again to be sure...

But this is Casablanca, isn´t it? So beautiful, full of emotion under the blanket, much more touching imo than a simple hug. That´s a little bit John again, standing at the graveyard, touching it simply. Not a drama queen , but with a lot of feels.

Hera · January 13, 2014 11:43 am

kazza474 wrote:
Hera wrote:
The thing is that Sherlock is not innocent. He just isn't. He killed someone and it wasn't in self-defense. There's nothing to prove. Maybe he wouldn't have to serve a lifetime in prison, but he still would have to go. Even Mycroft couldn't prevent (at least a while in) exile. (If it hadn't been for Moriarty.)

Yes how very, very convenient of Moriarty to pop up like he did, and the British Gov already know the ONLY person that could possibly handle him is Sherlock Holmes.
Very convenient to have a 'skill' that no-one else has and may possibly be needed sometime isn't it?

*chortles*

Well, even if Sherlock all the time exactly how everything turns out and he didn't fear any consequences at all (which I doubt), then I still think that he would have sacrificed his life if necessary. It just wasn't necessary. But he didn't make the vow just for fun. That's my whole point.

Sherlock is prepared to go to great lenghts for John.

stoertebeker · January 13, 2014 12:28 pm

Two things I have in mind at the moment (after first watching) about John:

When they said goodbye at the airport, maybe John unconsciously didn't believe he would never see Sherlock again. I mean, he saw him dying twice now and he always came back.

The other thing is, by putting his chair back, Sherlock offered John the opportunity to return to Baker Street and to him. When John finally forgave Mary he somehow chose her against him. It's how it feels to me and it makes me quiet sad at the moment.

The relationship between them changed a lot during series 3. First the runion and careful rebuilding of their friendship, then total closenes and (platonic) love and at the end they are drifting apart again. God, I'm sad!

Ozma · January 13, 2014 12:40 pm

yes. But that He would choose her over Sherlock is hardly a betrayal – he is married after all and therefore has got to live with her. Not much choice there. Even IF he didn’t love her, unless he wanted a divorce he would still need to live with her.
I find it quite interesting instead that, according to Bill’s deduction at the beginning, John is feeling restless already in his married life and has a suitcase ready? That is telling – possibly of how much he misses his buddy.
I guess this has changed now seeing as Mary has revealed herself to be quite interesting in terms of adrenaline and thrills…

Ozma · January 13, 2014 1:01 pm

Swanpride wrote:
I just want to point out that the moment Sherlock shot CAM, all the bets were off. He could have just as well getting killed on the spot in this situation. There was a reason he ordered John to stay away from him - to make sure that he wouldn't get caught in the crossfire.

And for one, horrible moment, I did fear that Mycroft's men were going to kill him right there, like a dog (Redbeard....) It was just one moment, but it was horrible.