BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012.


You are not logged in. Would you like to login or register?



January 11, 2014 10:29 am  #81


Re: The "new" Sherlock - emotions and all that

But to send a 'telegram' with that expressed this so openly is a bit like talking about the 'elephant in the room'.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't make people into heroes John. Heroes don't exist and if they did I wouldn't be one of them.
 

January 11, 2014 10:50 am  #82


Re: The "new" Sherlock - emotions and all that

I think the leitmotive of this season is Sherlock's inner battle symbolized by his "Mycroft" side and "Watson" side. Until now, he has always sided with Mycroft, in spite of his being kind of petulant and defiant child towards his older brother. He played tricks on him (GG, SiB, HoB), pretended not to listen to him, but in the end he always followed his lead. Mycroft declared in the very first episode that he "worries constantly about Sherlock" and he does: he wants a total control over his brother's life, knows everything about his friends and essentially wants him to be identical to him.In SiB we have this wonderful shot of two Holmes brothers in the morgue, when Mycroft says that "caring is not ad advantage". In TRF Sherlock essentially "betrays" Watson to go with the plan Mycroft concocted.In TEH we see him back to London, taking for granted that John will be delighted to see him again and everything will be exactly like in old times. Once he realizes it is not so, he also understands finally, that it is Watson and his friendship (with all its symbolic meaning of human nature) that matters most.Now that he knows it, he goes to great lenghts to embrace these values - we can see it in TSoT - he is willing to do everything to redeem himself and to save the greatest gift he has ever received: being loved and considered "the best friend" by another human being. (Obviously, he does it in a very "sherlockish" way, hence the episode is hilarious instead of being soapy). It must lead to a clash with Mycroft - we already have a warning in TSoT - which will culminate in the third episode.Truly a fascinating arc for his character, and after my initial mixed feelings about TEH I feel these diabolical duo M&G forced me to surrender and embrace again their vision of the series.  

 

January 11, 2014 11:16 am  #83


Re: The "new" Sherlock - emotions and all that

Firstly, I adore both Mark and Steven.
Secondly, I really enjoyed your post and I think you are right.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

January 11, 2014 11:58 am  #84


Re: The "new" Sherlock - emotions and all that

miriel68 wrote:

I think the leitmotive of this season is Sherlock's inner battle symbolized by his "Mycroft" side and "Watson" side. Until now, he has always sided with Mycroft, in spite of his being kind of petulant and defiant child towards his older brother. He played tricks on him (GG, SiB, HoB), pretended not to listen to him, but in the end he always followed his lead. Mycroft declared in the very first episode that he "worries constantly about Sherlock" and he does: he wants a total control over his brother's life, knows everything about his friends and essentially wants him to be identical to him.In SiB we have this wonderful shot of two Holmes brothers in the morgue, when Mycroft says that "caring is not ad advantage". In TRF Sherlock essentially "betrays" Watson to go with the plan Mycroft concocted.In TEH we see him back to London, taking for granted that John will be delighted to see him again and everything will be exactly like in old times. Once he realizes it is not so, he also understands finally, that it is Watson and his friendship (with all its symbolic meaning of human nature) that matters most.Now that he knows it, he goes to great lenghts to embrace these values - we can see it in TSoT - he is willing to do everything to redeem himself and to save the greatest gift he has ever received: being loved and considered "the best friend" by another human being. (Obviously, he does it in a very "sherlockish" way, hence the episode is hilarious instead of being soapy). It must lead to a clash with Mycroft - we already have a warning in TSoT - which will culminate in the third episode.Truly a fascinating arc for his character, and after my initial mixed feelings about TEH I feel these diabolical duo M&G forced me to surrender and embrace again their vision of the series.  

Great post to which I find myself in total agreement.


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

January 11, 2014 12:06 pm  #85


Re: The "new" Sherlock - emotions and all that

Agree with it too. Also with the notion that, as much as you try to rebel and fight it, eventually Mofftiss always manage to make you accept, understand, and even appreciate their vision.

(This said, they haven't managed to do so with Mary with me - but I am sure there is a reason for that )

 

January 11, 2014 12:31 pm  #86


Re: The "new" Sherlock - emotions and all that

Sherlock is a great actor but I don't think he's acting in any way about his caring for John and Mary.  He IS most vulnerable where they are concerned.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

January 11, 2014 12:40 pm  #87


Re: The "new" Sherlock - emotions and all that

I am aslo wondering if this is the mistake referred to in the trailer for His Last Vow.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

January 11, 2014 12:54 pm  #88


Re: The "new" Sherlock - emotions and all that

Don´t get involved

 

January 11, 2014 1:02 pm  #89


Re: The "new" Sherlock - emotions and all that

Quite.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

January 11, 2014 1:25 pm  #90


Re: The "new" Sherlock - emotions and all that

The mistake is crossing CAM, as it's CAM who's saying it. I think. 

 

January 11, 2014 1:30 pm  #91


Re: The "new" Sherlock - emotions and all that

Not that dissimilar to Moriaty, then.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

January 11, 2014 2:41 pm  #92


Re: The "new" Sherlock - emotions and all that

miriel68 wrote:

I think the leitmotive of this season is Sherlock's inner battle symbolized by his "Mycroft" side and "Watson" side. Until now, he has always sided with Mycroft, in spite of his being kind of petulant and defiant child towards his older brother. He played tricks on him (GG, SiB, HoB), pretended not to listen to him, but in the end he always followed his lead. Mycroft declared in the very first episode that he "worries constantly about Sherlock" and he does: he wants a total control over his brother's life, knows everything about his friends and essentially wants him to be identical to him.In SiB we have this wonderful shot of two Holmes brothers in the morgue, when Mycroft says that "caring is not ad advantage". In TRF Sherlock essentially "betrays" Watson to go with the plan Mycroft concocted.In TEH we see him back to London, taking for granted that John will be delighted to see him again and everything will be exactly like in old times. Once he realizes it is not so, he also understands finally, that it is Watson and his friendship (with all its symbolic meaning of human nature) that matters most.Now that he knows it, he goes to great lenghts to embrace these values - we can see it in TSoT - he is willing to do everything to redeem himself and to save the greatest gift he has ever received: being loved and considered "the best friend" by another human being. (Obviously, he does it in a very "sherlockish" way, hence the episode is hilarious instead of being soapy). It must lead to a clash with Mycroft - we already have a warning in TSoT - which will culminate in the third episode.Truly a fascinating arc for his character, and after my initial mixed feelings about TEH I feel these diabolical duo M&G forced me to surrender and embrace again their vision of the series.  

 
Perfect post, miriel.  I've been on the verge of this same avenue of thought concerning Mycroft's and Sherlock's complex relationship as shown in the first two episodes for a day or two now but you expressed it better than I ever could.  I've been mulling it over from the moment I saw Sherlock mentally slap himself in the face as the demanding inner voice of Mycroft, standing over him in judgement, urges him to "Narrow it down!. Narrow it down!".  I see it as the denouement of Sherlock's struggle between the logical and emotional and his struggle with the control and influence his brother has had over him since childhood.  His mental "Not you! Not you!" at Mycroft and then his turn toward John declaring, "You! It's always you.  John Watson, you keep me right!"  He's made his choice, hasn't he?  We are watching a beautiful arc of human and emotional growth in an amazingly complex character.  He's turning from a 'good man' into a 'great man' before our eyes.

As it was in the first two series, the more I watch, the more detail and nuance I catch from this extraordinary production.  Wonderful writing, wonderful acting.  One is always forced to go 'deeper'.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And I said "dangerous" and here you are.

You. It's always you. John Watson, you keep me right.

 

January 11, 2014 3:06 pm  #93


Re: The "new" Sherlock - emotions and all that

KeepersPrice wrote:

He's turning from a 'good man' into a 'great man' before our eyes.

Mmm, knowing the Moftiss, don't get your hopes up.  The next episode might be a similar slap in the face. 

Though I agree with the symbolism. I think mind-Mycroft is more a representation of his cold and logical side, and Watson of the emotional ethical side. I saw the moment just as him making a mental leap to switch from looking for the killer to looking for the vicitm. I don't think it's the entire character arc, he needs to balance those two forces, not choose one over the other. 
 

 

January 11, 2014 11:41 pm  #94


Re: The "new" Sherlock - emotions and all that

silverblaze wrote:

KeepersPrice wrote:

He's turning from a 'good man' into a 'great man' before our eyes.

Mmm, knowing the Moftiss, don't get your hopes up.  The next episode might be a similar slap in the face. 

Though I agree with the symbolism. I think mind-Mycroft is more a representation of his cold and logical side, and Watson of the emotional ethical side. I saw the moment just as him making a mental leap to switch from looking for the killer to looking for the vicitm. I don't think it's the entire character arc, he needs to balance those two forces, not choose one over the other. 
 

 
Thanks, Silver.  I think you are right about the 'balance'.  He's still trying to find it and sometimes it's a war between the two forces - but I  think he's learned both are needed. There will be times to come (like probably in tomorrow's episode) where cold unfeeling logic will be the only way to survive or solve the problem but at least he has recognized that being human and caring can be what 'saves the life'. John is that side of him and why John is so important.  It takes both forces.

Mycroft is still the Iceman who apparently (on the surface) has let no one into his life because the rest are just 'goldfish'.  Mycroft is mature and brilliant beyond belief (I have no doubt that intellectually/logically he is superior to little brother). But he does not have a "John" and I wonder if he ever did but then lost him or her.  Perhaps something in his story will be revealed tomorrow....


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And I said "dangerous" and here you are.

You. It's always you. John Watson, you keep me right.

 

January 11, 2014 11:53 pm  #95


Re: The "new" Sherlock - emotions and all that

^maybe the Mycroft's "goldfish" was the killed spy that got the "underground network" information to Mycroft.  They repeatedly refer to it-always showing Mycroft's reaction to it in TEH.
 


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sherlock Holmes, "Perfectly sound analysis but I was hoping you'd go deeper."
 

January 12, 2014 2:39 am  #96


Re: The "new" Sherlock - emotions and all that

miriel68 wrote:

I think the leitmotive of this season is Sherlock's inner battle symbolized by his "Mycroft" side and "Watson" side. Until now, he has always sided with Mycroft, in spite of his being kind of petulant and defiant child towards his older brother. He played tricks on him (GG, SiB, HoB), pretended not to listen to him, but in the end he always followed his lead. Mycroft declared in the very first episode that he "worries constantly about Sherlock" and he does: he wants a total control over his brother's life, knows everything about his friends and essentially wants him to be identical to him.In SiB we have this wonderful shot of two Holmes brothers in the morgue, when Mycroft says that "caring is not ad advantage". In TRF Sherlock essentially "betrays" Watson to go with the plan Mycroft concocted.In TEH we see him back to London, taking for granted that John will be delighted to see him again and everything will be exactly like in old times. Once he realizes it is not so, he also understands finally, that it is Watson and his friendship (with all its symbolic meaning of human nature) that matters most.Now that he knows it, he goes to great lenghts to embrace these values - we can see it in TSoT - he is willing to do everything to redeem himself and to save the greatest gift he has ever received: being loved and considered "the best friend" by another human being. (Obviously, he does it in a very "sherlockish" way, hence the episode is hilarious instead of being soapy). It must lead to a clash with Mycroft - we already have a warning in TSoT - which will culminate in the third episode.Truly a fascinating arc for his character, and after my initial mixed feelings about TEH I feel these diabolical duo M&G forced me to surrender and embrace again their vision of the series.  

This is awesome. I think that in addition, Sherlock is sort of testing out the "John side" of his personality. Because we saw him express more emotion than usual. Even taking in the fact that this season is often from Sherlock's point of view (something new for us) and we have more insight into his thoughts, he is still more emotional than in the past. But I think the wedding was almost him testing his "John side". We see him interacting with the bridesmaid, interrogating Mary's ex, that whole "We wouldnt' do that to John, would we" scene etc. Since in the end, he left alone and didn't look happy it'll be interesting to see if this emotional side of Sherlock is shut away in the next episode or if it sticks around. Less than 24h left!

 

January 12, 2014 8:27 am  #97


Re: The "new" Sherlock - emotions and all that

I don't know about Sherlock's emotions, but mine are fragile already!


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

January 12, 2014 11:48 am  #98


Re: The "new" Sherlock - emotions and all that

Glad you agree with my thoughts!  I think we will learn more about it after today's episode, but in any case the dynamics between Sherlock and Mycroft have been very much in focus in this season. We got a hint in TEH that Sherlock was "bullied" in a sense by Mycroft when they were children, thought to think himself inferior to his brother and to accept his wisdom about avoiding emotional involvement.  He made the choice to be cold and detached yet he always yearned (maybe inconsciously) to connect with someone. There are many hints of this in the first 2 series. There was this revealing moment in TBB, for example, when he presented, with much emphasis, John Watson as his "friend" and was looking very much hurt when John downgraded it to "collegue". Also, he visibly cringed when Sebastian mocked him about their University days. At the beginnig of TGG Sherlock first offended Watson, but then, again, was obviously alarmed and disappointed, when John stormed out of the house.  In the second series all these feelings became even more evident So I think the major shift is that Sherlock started as very immature emotionally, childlish really and here we see him already capable of auto-analysis and dealing more consciously with his feelings. Why, he says this much at the end of TSoT: he was able to recognize that John and Mary acted as "parents" with him and put up with his child-like behaviour. Of course, the traces of his childlish emotions are still there: his jealousy about major Sholto, for example. And he will never become a "nice fellow": very intelligent persons are not likely to suffer fools gladly. But he has begun to question Mycroft's wisdom and I hope he won't stop on this path. . 

 

January 12, 2014 12:22 pm  #99


Re: The "new" Sherlock - emotions and all that

I don't think its just a case of Mycroft seeing caring as a weakness in Sherlock; but also that he sees it as a weakness within himself. He cares for Sherlock.
From the first episode 'So when you say you are concerned about him-you actually are concerned'? 'Yes of course'. Ringing John during SiB 'You have to stay with him John'. 'Ive got plans'. 'No.' And of course going undercover to get Sherlock 'the noise, the people!'

 

January 12, 2014 12:27 pm  #100


Re: The "new" Sherlock - emotions and all that

That reaction shot in TBB when Sebastian said 'we all hated him' is my favorite moment of the whole episode. 

The script is the only Sherlock script that is freely available and if you read it you can see how much the actors changed it. That shot wasn't in it, for example and Sebastian was way cooler than in the script. 

 

Board footera

 

Powered by Boardhost. Create a Free Forum