BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » John after the Fall

tobeornot221b · March 4, 2012 9:55 am

There is something I’d always get furious at:
After Sherlock having been rushed into Bart’s nobody takes care of John who’s just been witnessing his best friend’s death. He is in shock. Why does no-one put a blanket on him? Get him a cuppa? Offer him any comfort or at least stay with him? He’s left outside alone. Shame on you, paramedics (be you real or homeless network fake ones)! Don’t you know that witnesses of such a dramatic event must be paid attention to as well?

kazza474 · March 4, 2012 11:12 am

It's a drama show & for dramatic effect, he was left alone.
Because he is now left alone in the world. It worked on you, because you feel the utter desolation, the utter helplessness he felt.
That's the making of a good show.

tobeornot221b · March 4, 2012 11:46 am

I agree. But I find the paramedic's obvious wrongdoing most annoying!

kazza474 · March 4, 2012 12:24 pm

I wouldn't call it a wrong doing. The 'paramedics' (which they weren't) give full consideration to the dying/dead patient. The witness was fine medically. They could go back & deal with him.
We also didn't see anything for long after Sherlock was taken away. John's 'situation' was being done in slow motion, again dramatic effect.
The whole scene would not have played out the way it did in real life anyway. But there are enough medical reality shows around if I wanted to watch that stuff.

Sherlock Holmes · March 4, 2012 12:25 pm

I know!! The most traumatising aspect of the epsiode is the effect it has on John. It's all right for us, we all know that Sherlock's still alive...but poor John!! AAAH, it rips my heart in two....

Davina · March 4, 2012 10:04 pm

The scene is really disorientating for the viewer too. Lots of unstable, blurred camera work. Felt quite woozy myself during the scene, especially after the shock of Sherlock jumping from the roof. Really well done. It feels real.

BrandoMan13 · March 4, 2012 10:57 pm

Davina wrote:
The scene is really disorientating for the viewer too. Lots of unstable, blurred camera work. Felt quite woozy myself during the scene, especially after the shock of Sherlock jumping from the roof. Really well done. It feels real.

They really did a great job of helping us understand what John was going through. Obviously from the start of the episode we understand his pain and sadness but this scene really hammers it home for the viewer.

I did find the whole scene odd...A man falls to his death, they pick up the body and leave John standing all alone. No police are shown roping off the area, nobody stays around chit-chatting about having just seen a man fall to his death. Not sure if there is any substance behind it or just wasn't important for the story to stage and shoot all those goings on.

Sherlock Holmes · March 4, 2012 11:47 pm

I think that's kind of the whole point - all the people helping out were probably set up by Sherlock, from his homeless network, or enlisted by Molly to help, so they just got straight out the way once the job was done. Probably if John looked back at that he'd remember there was something odd about the whole thing that didn't quite make sense...maybe that's why he asks for "one more miracle" because in someways he can't quite believe that Sherlock is dead. He's already seen how Irene Adler can come back from the dead so why not Sherlock...but then he doesn't want to believe that in case it turns out just to be wishful thinking.

BrandoMan13 · March 5, 2012 1:16 am

Sherlock Holmes wrote:
I think that's kind of the whole point - all the people helping out were probably set up by Sherlock, from his homeless network, or enlisted by Molly to help, so they just got straight out the way once the job was done. Probably if John looked back at that he'd remember there was something odd about the whole thing that didn't quite make sense...maybe that's why he asks for "one more miracle" because in someways he can't quite believe that Sherlock is dead. He's already seen how Irene Adler can come back from the dead so why not Sherlock...but then he doesn't want to believe that in case it turns out just to be wishful thinking.

I do love that John has complete and utter faith in Sherlock...so much so that he still holds out hope he's alive. Funny thing is, if it was anyone but Sherlock we'd all think he is crazy.

Sherlock Holmes · March 5, 2012 2:10 am

I know, it's so sweet!

kazza474 · March 5, 2012 4:50 am

BrandoMan13 wrote:
I do love that John has complete and utter faith in Sherlock...so much so that he still holds out hope he's alive. Funny thing is, if it was anyone but Sherlock we'd all think he is crazy.

I really don't think he has any hopes of him being alive. That line 'don't ... be dead' was just desperation, slight tragic humour as he knows nothing else to say. One last joke with his friend.
It's over as far as John is concerned. His life's empty again.

BrandoMan13 · March 5, 2012 5:06 am

kazza474 wrote:
BrandoMan13 wrote:
I do love that John has complete and utter faith in Sherlock...so much so that he still holds out hope he's alive. Funny thing is, if it was anyone but Sherlock we'd all think he is crazy.
I really don't think he has any hopes of him being alive. That line 'don't ... be dead' was just desperation, slight tragic humour as he knows nothing else to say. One last joke with his friend.
It's over as far as John is concerned. His life's empty again.

I agree with most of your posts but on this topic I disagree.

I truly think John thinks of Sherlock as almost super-human, or capable of things no other person is capable of. It might be desperation but I do think that deep deep down he is hoping against hope that somehow a miracle will occur and he'll have his friend back.

tobeornot221b · March 5, 2012 5:18 am

Sherlock’s: "Keep your eyes fixed on me – please will you do this for me. Don’t move",
corresponds with John’s:
"Would you do that for me – don’t.be.dead."
So it’s like: I did you the favour – now it’s your turn!
Of course said out of sheer desperation.
But hope is the last to die. And John isn't dead yet...

kazza474 · March 5, 2012 5:39 am

BrandoMan13 wrote:
I agree with most of your posts but on this topic I disagree.

I truly think John thinks of Sherlock as almost super-human, or capable of things no other person is capable of. It might be desperation but I do think that deep deep down he is hoping against hope that somehow a miracle will occur and he'll have his friend back.

John was at a low point when he met Sherlock. Yes he was amazed by his deductive powers, but he came to understand that it is all pure logic. He understands he thinks on a different plane to most others, but "almost super-human, or capable of things no other person is capable of"? No. That's fantasy thinking, very "Dr Who-ish". And that's not John at all. He knows Sherlock is human and vulnerable like everyone else. And mortal like anyone else, mortal like his army friends who he saw die in the war. Death is something John can relate to and accept. It happens everyday.
He has no reason to think otherwise in Sherlock's case. He's now alone, back in the low point. There are no hopes and dreams, and fantasies in that low point, there's nothing in that low point.

kazza474 · March 5, 2012 5:49 am

tobeornot221b wrote:
Sherlock’s: "Keep your eyes fixed on me – please will you do this for me. Don’t move",
corresponds with John’s:
"Would you do that for me – don’t.be.dead."
So it’s like: I did you the favour – now it’s your turn!
Of course said out of sheer desperation.
But hope is the last to die. And John isn't dead yet...

Hmm no. Those 2 lines have a few words the same, but their meanings and deliveries are worlds apart. I doubt strongly that they were ever meant to relate to each other. There's a lot of words in a script, but that doesn't mean they all have to correspond to each other. Using your methods I'll put this to you:

Sherlock to Rich Brook : Stop it! Stop it now!!!!
John to Sherlock's grave stone: ... don't be dead. Just for me. Just stop it, stop this.

SO : Moriarty will come back as 'not dead' just like Sherlock because they were both told to "Stop it" , so they must both be still alive huh?

Davina · March 5, 2012 7:49 am

John's pleading with Sherlock to stop it could be easily interpreted as his being in denial about Sherlock really being dead, which would correspond with normal stages in the grieving process. In that respect John is completely normal.

kazza474 · March 5, 2012 7:55 am

That's the phrase I wanted 'normal grieving process'. Thanks!

Sherlock Holmes · March 5, 2012 8:09 am

Davina wrote:
John's pleading with Sherlock to stop it could be easily interpreted as his being in denial about Sherlock really being dead, which would correspond with normal stages in the grieving process. In that respect John is completely normal.

Yep, I think you've got it there. John is grieiving and stress. He's saying those things because he desperately wants them to be true, even if he doesn't really believe they are true. "That's what people do!"

Davina · March 5, 2012 11:52 am

What Sherlock and Mycroft would call 'sentiment'. Remember the scene just outside the morgue when they have just, incorrectly as it happens, identified Irene Adler's body?

Sherlock Holmes · March 7, 2012 8:01 pm

Although Sherlock must feel some "sentiment" himself, otherwise he wouldn't have made the jump...he just would have been like "OK kill them, who needs friends anyway?"