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January 3, 2014 12:55 am  #101


Re: The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer??

after TWO years of obsessive debate..it's crappy writing to have an audience still NOT know how he did it.  I was really looking forward to the chapter being closed so that I could go back to enjoying the show...but these authors love to yank the chain....after awhile it gets old and frustrating and the joy of watching Sherlock decreases to the point where I won't tune in.

If the season 3 episode 3 ends with a huge cliffhanger and I have to wait ANOTHER two years for another vague explanation...I won't be as enthusiastic to keep watching this show..

and vague explanations are bad writing..


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Sherlock Holmes, "Perfectly sound analysis but I was hoping you'd go deeper."
 

January 3, 2014 1:24 am  #102


Re: The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer??

Sherlock Holmes wrote:

But but but...they can't leave it like that. They have to actually tell us at some point. It would be a really big cop out and a cheat if they didn't.

I agree. At this moment I'm a bit disappointed too, because I don't find it clever to leave it open, not after the 2 years they spent stimulating our theories by saying that "something was missing" and etc, it's not clever if they were just pretending to do something concrete all this time. Unfortunately I don't have much hope they will continue this 


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“The scar had not pained Harry for nineteen years. All was well.” HP and the Deathly Hallows

"Why's it always the hat photograph?"The Reichenbach Fall
 

January 3, 2014 1:47 am  #103


Re: The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer??

IMPO  I think Moffat and Gatiss are done and dusted with solutions to Sherlock's survival because of the brief exchange of dialogue between Anderson and Sherlock towards the end of that scene. The co-creators appear to enjoy being a bit cheeky during interviews.
I was very caught up in the show last night, but did anyone notice if Sherlock removed the memory card from the camera before he disappeared?

 

January 3, 2014 2:59 am  #104


Re: The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer??

Deilenn wrote:

What Sherlock did tell Anderson might be the truth but while watching it I got the impression this scene was not real... That it was Anderson who thought he's talking to Sherlock, he only imagined this. I started thinking like that after Sherlock suddenly disappeared as if he wasn't in that room in reality, and Anderson started laughing... xd

me too Deilenn.    And using Anderson's first name?  come on, really?  not the complete story.   and
hard to know whether it's real,  which is probably the intent.   Like someone said similarly about the
'fantasy' ending of ASIB.      I will reserve judgment till the end of Series 3.

 

January 3, 2014 7:07 am  #105


Re: The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer??

I watched the whole darn thing again on a good stream by now...and I got the feeling, we have to make do with theory No 3, like it or not. In contrast to the other ones, it was too elaborately presented, and it covered a lot of ground. Like many of you, I had come to the conclusion, that Sherlock wasn't played by Moriarty and that he was the player instead. He wasn't making it up as he went along, since  a scenario with a spur of the moment solution would have been too unlikely. And the visuals of TRF do give clues hinting at a second sniper: so maybe that's the clue most fans missed. I was glad, that Moriarty's suicide was NOT anticipated or deliberately triggered by Sherlock, because that scenario seemed always ludicrous to me. I also like the idea with the 'good' sniper taking out the bad. Since Moriarty had used snipers before, it was logical to anticipate one. My hunch is now, that Mofftiss kept the solution close to what they had to film anyway: Evacuate the street and place an airbag on the ground, into which the actor or stuntman can jump. Throw some kind of dummy (the corpse is basically a dummy) on the ground in order to film the crash. That's exactly, how you would film a suicidal jump from a roof! Sherlock basically staged a Making Of. A film insider's solution. Since this couldn't possibly live up to the scrutinization of the long time expert fans, they invented Anderson and his fan club, and played the cheeky card. I didn't get the feeling, that Sherlock was a hallucination of Anderson. Anderson's disappointment, doubts and subsequent breakdown was mirroring our reactions: We lived so long with our elaborate theories, and had seen so many clues, real or imagined in TRF, that we don't want to believe in Moftiss' solution. The Anderson Fanclub device is rather clever and leaves the door open for all, who don't like that solution. Personally, I'm with Anderson whom I really started to like in that episode. I still hope, we will learn more. TRF was sooo elaborately set up and riddled with clues and hints, like the enigmatic IOU with black wings (stage rule: if you place a gun as prop in the first act, you better use it in the third act). Or the long mysterious talk and handshake with Moriarty on the roof top would have been completely wasted in it's chilling brilliance, if it was only a device to give Sherlock's helpers enough time to set up the blue pillow. There were many more 'props' in TRF, which were not used or explained in the new episode. If they leave it at that, it's a bit of a disappointing cop out, and it would influence my appreciation of TRF considerably. I never expected Mofftiss to give everything away in the first new episode so I postpone judgement until after the third episode of the new season.

Last edited by sherlocked (January 3, 2014 7:08 am)

 

January 3, 2014 9:16 am  #106


Re: The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer??

I hope he hasn't run his course and I also want Sally back.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

January 3, 2014 12:01 pm  #107


Re: The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer??

My big problem with this last theory is: The way it has been explained looks as if John should be the one to fool. But he wasn't. Some of you mentioned it already in other posts. Moriarty's snipers had to be convinced about Sherlock's death. At TRF we saw John's sniper take his position in the staircase of a building during the roof scene. After Sherlock's fall we saw the sniper again at the same staircase targeting John before he puts the weapon away. But in this scene John was already at the pavement where Sherlock had landed. So the sniper had to be in a position to see Sherlock's fall porperly. He  would have seen the airbag and the dummy corpse and would have realised everything was a fake. Sherlock explained to Anderson that Mycroft's men took care of the snipers before they could shoot. Well, even if that is true, even if he puts the weapon away because of the intervention of Mycroft then where is the whole point of Sherlock faking his death? If it was so easy to put the snipers out of the way and erase the danger from his friends then it was unnecessary for Shelrock to "die", be away for two years and fool his friends.
For me this is the big hole in this theory and that's why I don't think it's true.
To be honest, I believe that Moftiss had a vague idea how the faked death should took place. But over the time with all the theories going through the internet, maybe they realised that there will never be an explanation which is 100% convincing. That's why they made the episode the way it is now. With no real answer. Disappointing in some way, but also very clever. Sherlock said to John at the end of TEH "You know my methods, John, I am known to be indestructible." I suppose that's the best answer we'll get, Sherlock survived because he is Sherlock Holmes .


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"There is a place for people like you, the desperate, the terrified. The ones with nowhere else to run."
"What place?"
"221B Baker Street."
 

January 3, 2014 12:08 pm  #108


Re: The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer??

stoertebeker wrote:

My big problem with this last theory is: The way it has been explained looks as if John should be the one to fool. But he wasn't. Some of you mentioned it already in other posts. Moriarty's snipers had to be convinced about Sherlock's death. At TRF we saw John's sniper take his position in the staircase of a building during the roof scene. After Sherlock's fall we saw the sniper again at the same staircase targeting John before he puts the weapon away. But in this scene John was already at the pavement where Sherlock had landed. So the sniper had to be in a position to see Sherlock's fall porperly. He  would have seen the airbag and the dummy corpse and would have realised everything was a fake. Sherlock explained to Anderson that Mycroft's men took care of the snipers before they could shoot. Well, even if that is true, even if he puts the weapon away because of the intervention of Mycroft then where is the whole point of Sherlock faking his death? If it was so easy to put the snipers out of the way and erase the danger from his friends then it was unnecessary for Shelrock to "die", be away for two years and fool his friends.
For me this is the big hole in this theory and that's why I don't think it's true.
To be honest, I believe that Moftiss had a vague idea how the faked death should took place. But over the time with all the theories going through the internet, maybe they realised that there will never be an explanation which is 100% convincing. That's why they made the episode the way it is now. With no real answer. Disappointing in some way, but also very clever. Sherlock said to John at the end of TEH "You know my methods, John, I am known to be indestructible." I suppose that's the best answer we'll get, Sherlock survived because he is Sherlock Holmes .

Very good, stoertebeker - I agree!

Just one nit-picking thing: Jim had said: "Until my people see you JUMP..."
Sherlock did jump. There was nothing mentioned about the method of LANDING.


 


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John: "Have you spoken to Mycroft, Molly, uh, anyone?"
Mrs Hudson: "They don’t matter. You do."


I BELIEVE IN SERIES 5!




                                                                                                                  
 

January 3, 2014 12:27 pm  #109


Re: The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer??

Swanpride wrote:

Who said that the sniper was the only one of Moriarty's men in the area? Moriarty spoke of "my people" - plural. So I guess there were more of his men around, at least one person who would give the three snipers the signal to take action. But I guess, unlike the sniper, he was not in a position to see the whole street but, like John, in a position were he could see the jump but not the landing. Perhaps he watched from afar....or per street camera.

Yes, could be. But there would still be the other sniper who had the position to see Sherlock's landing.

@tobeornot: Well, that could be the conclusion! The sniper just paid no attention any more after Sherlock stepped of the roof .


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"There is a place for people like you, the desperate, the terrified. The ones with nowhere else to run."
"What place?"
"221B Baker Street."
 

January 3, 2014 1:00 pm  #110


Re: The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer??

Swanpride wrote:

What other sniper? There was one for John. And one of John's sniper, who worked for Mycroft.

I was referring to your post:

Swanpride wrote:

Who said that the sniper was the only one of Moriarty's men in the area? Moriarty spoke of "my people" - plural. So I guess there were more of his men around, at least one person who would give the three snipers the signal to take action.

But you are right. That must not be a sniper. Could be someone watching from an other building. But the problem still is that John's sniper was able to the the pavement where Sherlock landed, so he was able to see that it is fake.


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"There is a place for people like you, the desperate, the terrified. The ones with nowhere else to run."
"What place?"
"221B Baker Street."
 

January 3, 2014 1:02 pm  #111


Re: The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer??

Yes, but Sherlock said that Mycroft "took care of" that sniper before he could act.


__________________________________

"After all this time?" "Always."
Good bye, Lord Rickman of the Alan
 

January 3, 2014 1:18 pm  #112


Re: The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer??

Mattlocked wrote:

Yes, but Sherlock said that Mycroft "took care of" that sniper before he could act.

Right. Then the big question is: Why has Sherlock been "dead" for two years and letting his friends grieve when the immediate danger for them wasn't there any more. If it was possible to take care of the snipers so easily then the whole faking-death-scenario would be pointless.

But you noticed something? TEH as been aired and we are still discussing and theorizing of the fall. They are two very clever little bastards, Moftiss, are they?


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"There is a place for people like you, the desperate, the terrified. The ones with nowhere else to run."
"What place?"
"221B Baker Street."
 

January 3, 2014 1:59 pm  #113


Re: The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer??

stoertebeker wrote:

But you noticed something? TEH as been aired and we are still discussing and theorizing of the fall. They are two very clever little bastards, Moftiss, are they?

Agreed! Though Mark's quite tall. 

I think the final explanation was the correct one, it's the most simple and has all the clues from TRF in it. Occam's razor anyone? And the holes, c'mon it's just fiction. I believed this was the explanation that was plotted out by the Moftisson while they wrote series three. But maybe after that they may have gotten a tiny little bit nervous with all the theories and elaborated a bit. (I just loved the trolling opening sequence!) Telling it to Anderson? There are so many things happening offscreen in TEH that, honestly, that doesn't bother me at all.

Anderson's reaction is just lampshading the reactions of part of the fandom and keeping it mysterious is really the only way they could avoid being too disappointing. Doesn't he even say so in the series that after two years of wild theories, everything  would be disappointing? 

What I found more difficult to catch is the why. I missed quite a bit of dialogue because Benedict talks so bloody fast, but did they explain that at all? Why fake it to John, the sniper didn't need to be fooled cuz he'd gonna be a dead sniper very soon. My guess is that it's Moriarty's network that had to be fooled, if they weren't, they'd kill them in another way later. That's why Sherlock needed to be in hiding. Still the whole thing was set up to fool John, that doesn't actually make sense. 

The 'clue everyone missed': well I guess we could ask Moftiss now, couldn't we? 

The 'out of character moment': it's Mycroft being fooled by Moriarty! 
 

 

January 3, 2014 2:23 pm  #114


Re: The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer??

all that was mentioned was that Moriarty had to be stopped, then Martin interupts and tells him he wants to know why he had kept it a secret from him, he wasn't bothered about Moriarty,thereofre they never really got to that explanation. all they said about keeping it from John was that it was Mycroft's idea, so they never elaborated on that either


"What Life? I've been away"

'"Shut up John! I don't want everyone knowing I'm still alive"

 

January 3, 2014 2:26 pm  #115


Re: The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer??

silverblaze wrote:

What I found more difficult to catch is the why. I missed quite a bit of dialogue because Benedict talks so bloody fast, but did they explain that at all? Why fake it to John, the sniper didn't need to be fooled cuz he'd gonna be a dead sniper very soon. My guess is that it's Moriarty's network that had to be fooled, if they weren't, they'd kill them in another way later. That's why Sherlock needed to be in hiding. Still the whole thing was set up to fool John, that doesn't actually make sense. 

No, unfortunatly they didn't. Would have been nice to see it in the show though, to see John's reaction when he learned that Sherlock did it to save him. But maybe we'll get some more talking stuff between the boys in the next episodes.
I am still not convinced about the theory , but well it doesn't matter, I am OK with the resolution we got. I am perfectly content with Sherlock's "I am known to be indestructible" .


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"There is a place for people like you, the desperate, the terrified. The ones with nowhere else to run."
"What place?"
"221B Baker Street."
 

January 3, 2014 2:53 pm  #116


Re: The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer??

I have a feeling that fans will still be debating the HOW for many years.  That's what fandoms do!


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Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

January 3, 2014 3:00 pm  #117


Re: The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer??

that´s what they want us to do  


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..I've always assumed that love is a dangerous disadvantage. Thank you for the final proof...
 

January 3, 2014 4:05 pm  #118


Re: The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer??

The 'Why' is VERY hard to explain. The idea is, that, if John sincerely believed in Sherlock's death and mourned him long and properly, Moriarty's net would believe it, too. But you wonder, if a plan, where the snipers could testify to Sherlock's fall and didn't wind up dead, wouldn't have made more sense. Also, if Moriarty's net was really that powerful, you wonder, if a plan, where so many people were in the know, and many things, like a big blue pillow and a body thrown out of a window could've been watched from the inside of other buildings, was wise. Heck, even his parents knew! That one is a little hard to swallow and too cheeky from the writers, IMO. And, since Sherlock's wish to 'die' and thus being able to go into the woodworks and dismantle the crime net, preceded Moriarty's threat to kill his friends, one wonders, if Mycroft and Sherlock couldn't have come up with a more foolproof plan. Of course, we had the fall because of canon, but still.... the background story could've been a little more convincing. Speaking of canon, in the original story, it IS witnessed, that Holmes doesn't fall to his death after all. That's, why Sebastian Moran is so dangereous. There was a good story, they just could've picked up, and since it concerned Moriarty's web, all the background explaining could've been done much more elegantly.
The one glaringly gaping plot hole of Mofftiss' solution No 3 is of course the crash of the dead Sherlock lookalike, just for John's benefit. Sure, they needed a really dead body eventually, because they had to bury someone as being Sherlock. But to throw out a lookalike, just so, that John could see a body for a few seconds, before he was knocked out, is a little hard to swallow, especially, since he saw and touched the real Sherlock, before he was taken away! I guess, the reason for that added dead body is a very different one. We, the tv audience were meant to see a body, which really crashed onto the pavement! That fact stimulated all our discussions for the last two years. If we hadn't seen that crash, but just Sherlock's fall, which was visually interrupted by the flat building, and then seen his body lying on the pavement, there wouldn't have been this 'Wow' effect at all. We all would've said: "Big deal, there was something behind that building, which broke the fall, doesn't really matter, what it was!"  The plot twist of the body thrown out of the window and crashing into the ground was solely added in order to fabricate a better cliff hanger, but it weakens the weak credibilty of the scenario even further. When we all started to analyze the situation at leisure for almost two years (a situation, Mofftiss may not have foreseen), the script writers had to find a way to make the glaring plot holes less visible. They choose to gloss them over with ambiguity and laughter. Not a bad idea at all.... but of course not good enough for us arm chair detectives, lol! Like people believe in Sherlock's indestructibility, we believed in Mofftiss' unlimited plotting ability...and, maybe overestimated them. Agatha Christie invented the character of the mystery writer Ariadne Oliver as her alter ego. Ariadne Oliver alway complained about her readers, who eventually detected every little plot hole or logical mistakes in her novels. So, like Agatha Christie herself, she went to great length to construct air tight plots. Most of the time, she succeded pretty well, better than Mofftiss IMO..... unless we get a better solution in the upcoming episodes. Then, they would've fooled us one more time, but I don't count on it.

 

January 3, 2014 4:17 pm  #119


Re: The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer??

Interesting point and you could be right.
I don't agree here, though: ....When we all started to analyze the situation at leisure for almost two years (a situation, Mofftiss may not have foreseen)....

After the airing of S1 they got an idea already and I am quite sure they knew what would come after the cliff hanger when Sherlock jumped off the roof.


__________________________________

"After all this time?" "Always."
Good bye, Lord Rickman of the Alan
 

January 3, 2014 4:21 pm  #120


Re: The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer??

KKKKK wrote:

all that was mentioned was that Moriarty had to be stopped, then Martin interupts and tells him he wants to know why he had kept it a secret from him, he wasn't bothered about Moriarty,thereofre they never really got to that explanation. all they said about keeping it from John was that it was Mycroft's idea, so they never elaborated on that either

Remember the end of ASiB or that scene in TGG, in which John tries to make Mycroft believe, that his brother is fully engaged with the Bruce-Partington-Plans? John obviously can´t lie, that´s the one and only reason why he couldn´t be involved into the plan (same in ACD canon btw). And Sherlock had to die absolut "successfully": in first line for the three snipers, but secondly also to dismantle Moriarty´s gang. Easier when they think their biggest enemy and maybe only serious danger is dead!

 

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