BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Not a fan of this episode

diva · January 17, 2017 7:20 am

Sorry but I can't see Eurus as a strong female character. She's stereotyped as genius loony who has to be locked away but can be rescued in the end by Sherlock's brotherly love when he finally gives her a hug and takes up regular visits to play violin with her. Sorry not buying it.

Besides, they didn't plan the sister before filming series 3. Do what did they plan when they started the show with ASIP? Can't have been the sister plot back then.

Last edited by diva (January 17, 2017 7:22 am)

besleybean · January 17, 2017 7:25 am

For those who work with the mentally disturbed and know, music is universally recognised as excellent therapy. People do indeed communicate through music.

Do we know they didn't plan the sister before S 3?

Last edited by besleybean (January 17, 2017 7:25 am)

SolarSystem · January 17, 2017 7:45 am

Well, if they did indeed plan to tell this story about the crazy sister from the very beginning, then I can only call what they did for eleven episodes sloppy writing. Because as far as I remember there is exactly one thing that could be interpreted as a clue, and that indeed is Sherlock's deduction in ASiP about Harriet: "A sister. There is always something." This can indeed be interpreted as a rather good clue - but there just has to be more. There were things hinting at Moriarty right from the beginning, and I would expect something similar for Eurus if that's the story they wanted to tell.

Preceja · January 17, 2017 7:57 am

SolarSystem wrote:
Well, if they did indeed plan to tell this story about the crazy sister from the very beginning, then I can only call what they did for eleven episodes sloppy writing. Because as far as I remember there is exactly one thing that could be interpreted as a clue, and that indeed is Sherlock's deduction in ASiP about Harriet: "A sister. There is always something." This can indeed be interpreted as a rather good clue - but there just has to be more. There were things hinting at Moriarty right from the beginning, and I would expect something similar for Eurus if that's the story they wanted to tell.

I do not think this one had anything to do with Eurus. Sherlock even did not remember her. But there was something from the begining, more subtle clues, why Sherlock is as he is (and Mycroft), something that was clear is going to be explained and it had to be a family tragedy that causes a person close from world, emotions in young age. I believe they were always planning this, how much in detail from the beginning hard to say.

SolarSystem · January 17, 2017 8:07 am

Preceja wrote:
SolarSystem wrote:
Well, if they did indeed plan to tell this story about the crazy sister from the very beginning, then I can only call what they did for eleven episodes sloppy writing. Because as far as I remember there is exactly one thing that could be interpreted as a clue, and that indeed is Sherlock's deduction in ASiP about Harriet: "A sister. There is always something." This can indeed be interpreted as a rather good clue - but there just has to be more. There were things hinting at Moriarty right from the beginning, and I would expect something similar for Eurus if that's the story they wanted to tell.
I do not think this one had anything to do with Eurus. Sherlock even did not remember her. But there was something from the begining, more subtle clues, why Sherlock is as he is (and Mycroft), something that was clear is going to be explained and it had to be a family tragedy that causes a person close from world, emotions in young age. I believe they were always planning this, how much in detail from the beginning hard to say.

The fact that Sherlock didn't remember her doesn't really matter to me, because I would consider something like his "A sister. There is always something" as a clue explicitly placed there for the audience. He doesn't even have to be aware of it himself at this point. But I have my doubts it was deliberate, that's why I wrote it could be interpreted as a clue.
And yes, it was clear right from the start that there was something going on with the Holmes family. It just doesn't convince me as the story they wanted to tell right from the beginning. But that's probably just me.

Last edited by SolarSystem (January 17, 2017 8:07 am)

Naavy · January 17, 2017 8:12 am

SolarSystem wrote:
Well, if they did indeed plan to tell this story about the crazy sister from the very beginning, then I can only call what they did for eleven episodes sloppy writing. Because as far as I remember there is exactly one thing that could be interpreted as a clue, and that indeed is Sherlock's deduction in ASiP about Harriet: "A sister. There is always something." This can indeed be interpreted as a rather good clue - but there just has to be more. There were things hinting at Moriarty right from the beginning, and I would expect something similar for Eurus if that's the story they wanted to tell.

It is good!
I like the idea of Sherlock, pushing thoughts about sister (as generic term) out of his mind so thoroughly, that even other's person sibling he understood only as a brother (ok., name "Harry" was misleading, but he was Sherlock Holmes!). In ACD canon is told, that Sherlock Holmes never trusted the women, but it was never explained, why. Mofftiss gave us the explanation, and convincing one.

Last edited by Naavy (January 17, 2017 8:13 am)

gently69 · January 17, 2017 8:24 am

SolarSystem wrote:
And yes, it was clear right from the start that there was something going on with the Holmes family. It just doesn't convince me as the story they wanted to tell right from the beginning. But that's probably just me.

I feel the same. If they planned it and had stayed with their concept, some more clues which were solved now had been a must. IMO.

@Naavy
In the series Sherlock trusted noone, no matter if men or women. A difference to Canon?

nakahara · January 17, 2017 8:24 am

diva wrote:
They always wanted to tell the story that Sherlock had a secret sister with mental superpowers? That's the one thing that they wanted to correct because every previous Holmes adaptation got it wrong?

I am with you on that one - I am convinced they never planned this sister plot ahead. They only got the idea of throwing this plot in at the end of S3.

In promising that this episode was what they were planning all along, they used the wrong kind of hype to surround the last episode. But that´s not surprising, they always do that, so no need to get worked up over that.

The real plot that they planned beforehand and which is apparent throughout the seasons is that concerning Moriarty. They hinted at Moriarty´s presence from the very start, they revealed his true form only at the end of S2, they used him as Sherlock´s nightmare even after he killed himself.... also, unlike Eurus, Moriarty is part of Doyle´s canon, so it is more believable the fans of Doyle were concentrated on him, rather than some original character of theirs.

And speaking of original characters, I remember how Mofftiss mentioned that they never planned Molly to appear past the first episode. They only started to work on her character more after she proved to be immmensely popular with fans. Which is the proof that not all plot points were planned beforehand in this story.

WhoIWantToBe · January 17, 2017 8:32 am

I have this crack theory that not only was the secret sibling not planned, the writers thought it was a good idea to introduce one after fans misinterpreted "Don't be absurd, I am not given to outbursts of brotherly compassion. You know what happened to the other one" . My crack/joke theory has Mycroft's really meaning 'you know what happened to my previous outburst of brotherly compassion', aka swooping in the get Sherlock out of Serbian jail, but prolonging it so he could watch his arse get kicked

nakahara · January 17, 2017 8:44 am

WhoIWantToBe wrote:
I have this crack theory that not only was the secret sibling not planned, the writers thought it was a good idea to introduce one after fans misinterpreted "Don't be absurd, I am not given to outbursts of brotherly compassion. You know what happened to the other one" . My crack/joke theory has Mycroft's really meaning 'you know what happened to my previous outburst of brotherly compassion', aka swooping in the get Sherlock out of Serbian jail, but prolonging it so he could watch his arse get kicked

I believe you nailed it beautifully.

One more proof for me is the character of Uncle Rudi. According to TFP, he was a powerful personage able to take Eurus without the knowledge of her parents, lock her up in a facility and not be hypnotised /enslaved by her in the process.

Yet in HLV, he is only mentioned as a part of a joke and painted as the black sheep of the family....

The plot concerning him in TFP was obviously not planned beforehand.

SolarSystem · January 17, 2017 8:49 am

In the behind the scenes extra that comes with the episodes on Amazon Video Mark even mentions Mycroft's remark about The Other One at the end of HLV and is pretty amused that everyone thought that Mycroft was talking about a brother. I wouldn't be surprised if Mofftiss thought about a brother themselves when they wrote HLV and then changed it to a sister after they became aware of the fans reactions.

WhoIWantToBe · January 17, 2017 9:13 am

Hah! nakahara and SolarSystem, good points! (I want to watch that BTS video now)

I just love the scene of the parents in 221B in TEH, rambling about spectacles when John arrives, and Sherlock gets all embarassed and kicks them out like a teenager. John states what I had thought at that moment 'but they are so normal'. I LOVE the idea that two normal parents could raise such genius, yet emotionally-constipated boys. It was so refreshing!

I think I need some brain bleach so I can purge S4's reveal and go back to my happy place in S3, watching Sherlock slam the door on his mother's foot.... Just like I did as a youth

Last edited by WhoIWantToBe (January 17, 2017 9:14 am)

Naavy · January 17, 2017 9:32 am

Oh, even name Sherrinford we can read in every second Sherlock fanfiction ;) I guess, originally it is from Cluedo?

But isn't it interesting, how series creators let us, fans, to be the source of ideas and inspirations, they put into the series? It is like completely new level of creating the story. I like it!

nakahara · January 17, 2017 9:37 am

Naavy wrote:
Oh, even name Sherrinford we can read in every second Sherlock fanfiction ;) I guess, originally it is from Cluedo?

Sherrinford originated with Arthur Conan Doyle. When he was in the planning stages of Sherlock Holmes stories, he planned to call his detective Sherrinford Holmes and Doctor Watson was originally called Ormond Sacker.

Preceja · January 17, 2017 9:48 am

In HLV they had to be planning something (somebody) behind Moriarty, how to explain the video? You cannot put anything like that at the end not knowing at all how to deal with it next time. And had to have a secret family tragedy on mind from the beginning. But true is that not necessarily connected this way and I also believe the change from brother to sister but sister works emotionally better.

Last edited by Preceja (January 17, 2017 9:49 am)

SharonH58 · January 17, 2017 1:47 pm

So did the parents of Victor never search for their missing child? Eurus was never punished for killing a kid and setting the house on fire? And all she needed to stop killing was a hug? Terrible story telling. What would they have done to the person if it wasn't a sister??? I hated 90% of it. And Moffet says he thinks Molly was 'ok' with Sherlock making her say I love you and not bothered by it. Of course she looked happy enough at the end to come babysit. Only some furniture and walls scorched by the 'bomb'. I did like that part of them cleaning up and having grown more baby. Sherlock and John looked very happy.

SolarSystem · January 17, 2017 2:27 pm

Preceja wrote:
In HLV they had to be planning something (somebody) behind Moriarty, how to explain the video? You cannot put anything like that at the end not knowing at all how to deal with it next time. And had to have a secret family tragedy on mind from the beginning. But true is that not necessarily connected this way and I also believe the change from brother to sister but sister works emotionally better.

Well, they had Sherlock jump off the roof of St. Bart's in TRF and apparently didn't have a clue how he would survive this.

Last edited by SolarSystem (January 17, 2017 2:28 pm)

besleybean · January 17, 2017 5:52 pm

I thought that was just the pool Resolution they had no idea about.

Oakwood375 · January 18, 2017 2:58 am

Yes, I've been looking for this thread!

I wasn't a fan either. The episode did not feel like Sherlock. Normally if there's a twist, it seems to be something that you would slap yourself upside the head about and think, "Oh, why didn't I see that?" With this episode, half the time I caught myself thinking , "What is this mind****???" It made no sense. There were too many loose ends and last minute additions and OOCness. Moftiss were really selling themselves short on this one. Were there some good moments? Yes. Did they have a solid ending to the season, possibly the series? Sure. But on the whole, it just felt cheap.

The ending left me feeling, idk, distanced from Sherlock. I guess it was good to be satisfied when I saw the credits roll, kind of like when you have dessert and stop and say, "That's good, but I've had enough now." But, it didn't have me begging for more, which makes me wonder how excited I would be if we heard we have a Season 5.

I just watched it last night, so I'm still working out how i feel about this. I so hope that I'll like it more the second time, but I'm not counting on anything.

besleybean · January 18, 2017 7:00 am

'feeling some distance' from BBC Sherlock for me could translate as ' a good place to leave it'...which is kind of how I felt about the episode.
Everything was wound up, it is done.