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January 10, 2017 10:05 pm  #101


Re: John's violence

nakahara wrote:

NoShipSherlock wrote:

I don't think this is a repeated pattern of abuse, I think it was a one time event and as I stated above, used as a plot device to break both men so they could reconcile.   

I wonder about that. Because I think there were signs in the show that John´s prevalence for violence is a bit not good - in numerous episodes.

Here are some examples of John´s physical and verbal attacks on other people. The first attact was directly provoked by Sherlock, but what about all the other stuff?

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/01/1b/dd/011bdd493aa5d5c89c6b2f67e648c175.jpg

http://25.media.tumblr.com/c92615b7249db2f13b37ffbf3d1021aa/tumblr_mgyw2zVlKw1qewsw4o3_500.gif

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/caffienekitty/11224213/3424338/3424338_original.jpg

https://justbookmarked.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/m.jpg

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/caffienekitty/11224213/3414981/3414981_original.jpg

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https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/40/46/5d/40465dd253bdd965b5554a4337eb4414.jpg

http://i0.wp.com/www.tor.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/sh-vow2.jpg?fit=475%2C%209999&crop=0%2C0%2C100%2C265px

http://foreveryoungadult.com/_uploads/images2/sherlock_hlv_2.jpg

https://67.media.tumblr.com/9811833bf7d6e437e27032aa817b9aa4/tumblr_inline_obj86xrFlV1sen6h4_500.gif

http://s1.okino.ua/article/2014/01/24/s2/06.gif

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/dd/57/2b/dd572bc3a2ba35ed5097a0c604517ec0.jpg

http://49.media.tumblr.com/cc47d14f71fb27d6d66b536e552a42c2/tumblr_o0dahxVamN1rtkriso2_r2_500.gif

http://68.media.tumblr.com/3c3e1bd0ad92fe22848fb8241b526ae6/tumblr_ojhunxzPrU1tajor5o5_500.gif

http://68.media.tumblr.com/ae0c3459cd6d8e16d7a28a38c45de82d/tumblr_ojhunxzPrU1tajor5o6_500.gif

http://68.media.tumblr.com/269b34eff153f2717e92348750b6955b/tumblr_ojhunxzPrU1tajor5o7_500.gif


Are those really just isolated incidents? Or is it something evolving here?
And is it only a coincidence that Sherlock sees John as aggressive towards him in his own head in TAB?
 

 
Does anyone notice that the severity of beatings is escalating?

 

January 10, 2017 10:17 pm  #102


Re: John's violence

No, it is not. It is according to the situation. The worst thing was the loss of Mary, the biggest grief, emotions. Before it  is kick to the chear, not worse than punch in the nose. 

 

January 10, 2017 10:43 pm  #103


Re: John's violence

Err.. well, now it's repeated punches to the face, knocking Sherlock onto the floor, and kicking him in the torso repeatedly until dragged off by nurses and security personnel, all while continuing to try to kick Sherlock as hard as he possibly can. 

But no one has a problem with this. It's just, you know, boy stuff. What's a few abrasions and possible internal injuries between friends? ;-)

 

January 10, 2017 10:50 pm  #104


Re: John's violence

Have you read this thread? Everybody here has problem with it , biger or smaller, for somebody it is much but still acceptable in critical situation, for somebody not. 

But as the worst in John's life happened recently does not mean that his violence is escalating, just that it is in him.

 

January 11, 2017 4:01 am  #105


Re: John's violence

I think John didn't control himself at that moment, it was like an emotional breakdown. But it was terrifying. 


http://68.media.tumblr.com/95b3db6669f502e75055682c4e06724c/tumblr_n24xodErzp1s9nxndo1_500.gif
 

January 11, 2017 4:28 am  #106


Re: John's violence

I'm coming late to this discussion, but just wanted to say that I hated what John did to Sherlock. h-a-t-e-d it. Especially the kicking. I can't imagine in god's name what Gatiss was thinking of to include such a thing in "our" show. The Sherlock-John friendship is the biggest draw for me to make me watch, and now he's killing it. Hate it. Hate all of that. Not sure if I'll be watching anymore after next Sunday, if this 3rd ep is as bad as the last 2. Ugh.

 

January 11, 2017 6:46 am  #107


Re: John's violence

I hate all of the violence...but it wouldn't stop me watching this show and anyway this week was Steven and not Mark!
None of us might be watching after Sunday, if it's the last one.


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January 11, 2017 7:50 am  #108


Re: John's violence

Before this season, I used to say that some of the things Sherlock had done was so shocking and horrible that I could neither justify nor defend them. And I liked that - because I don't need to be able to justify or defend everything a character do, they don't have to go by my moral standard. 

Now it's John's turn to do something so shocking and horrible that I can neither justify nor defend it. And I still like it.

I don't like the actions, but I like that Moftiss dare to go there, dare to give us properly flawed characters. Not just "teehee, he was rude to Anderson" or "teehee, he's a bit grumpy", but people who actually cross the line. Square-jawed heroes with few to zero flaws bore me to death. This is intriguing, and I don't have to like everything they do for me to be interested.

Last edited by Vhanja (January 11, 2017 7:54 am)


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January 11, 2017 9:06 am  #109


Re: John's violence

ancientsgate wrote:

I'm coming late to this discussion, but just wanted to say that I hated what John did to Sherlock. h-a-t-e-d it. Especially the kicking. I can't imagine in god's name what Gatiss was thinking of to include such a thing in "our" show. The Sherlock-John friendship is the biggest draw for me to make me watch, and now he's killing it. Hate it. Hate all of that. Not sure if I'll be watching anymore after next Sunday, if this 3rd ep is as bad as the last 2. Ugh.

Is not it real friendship when your friend does something really awful to you and you forgive him as you understand that he was under big preassure, is unable to control himself of whatever other serious reason? And you know he will do the same for you if it would happen. Given it is not a pattern and he realises it was not right which John does (speaking to Lestrade).
In fact I think that they needed this in this episode as something needed to be said. And the final scene would not be such strong without it . 
 

 

January 11, 2017 9:40 am  #110


Re: John's violence

Preceja wrote:

For me the scene in the underground, Sherlock's lying about the bomb is much worse than beating up Sherlock. 
What did John do, it was in stress, full of emotions, unprepared. I do not believe that he really wanted to injure badly but might have. 
Sherlock with the bomb was cold calculation, to force John forgive him in the minute of death. It could have been dangerous, too, heart attack or something. It was not for greater good, just selfish wish, great manipulation,mental violence.

Well, when I compare both scenes, I still can´t see how Sherlock´s behaviour was worse than John´s.

First the motivations: Sherlock "selfishly" wanted reconciliation.
I simply can´t see how reconciling with Sherlock hurt John. John seemed none the worse for wear after reconciling. Actually, I think, it´s what he secretly wished for too. I don´t think holding a grudge for much longer would benefit him.
On the other hand, John needed to beat Sherlock in the morgue to reach "catharsis".
In my opinion, catharsis like this would only benefit John and so, according to same logic we applied to Sherlock earlier, this was a "selfish" act too.
After John´s "catharsis", Sherlock ended as the bloody heap on the floor and needed a medical help right away. That all after being in a weakened state already.
In short, "selfishly forcing somebody to forgive" is not as severe in my book as "beating somebody to a pulp so that you can feel better about your miserable life".

That leads me to...

Physical and mental repercussions of both action:
While being subjected to that horrible "mental violence", John was healthy and in the clear state of mind. The "mental violence" lead to exactly 1:30 minute of acute mental anguish, replaced by healthy laughter and amusement.
No hospital was needed, no physical harm came to John, the mental anguish was all but forgotten.
The bomb was disfunctional (thanks to Sherlock´s action), so no actual threat of death was there for John.
Also, Sherlock was not the one who installed the bomb there, so he was not the main factor in endangering John´s life with it earlier.
While being subjected to vicious beating from John´s side, Sherlock was already weakened and his mental state during the scene was nearing hysteria.
Above, you forgave John´s behaviour, because he was acting "in a stress, full of emotions". Sherlock´s mental state during the morgue scene was much, much worse... doesn´t that count too?
After being massacred by John, Sherlock was bleeding, unable to stand, had a split above his eye, hematoma in the eye itself, maybe some cracked ribs... and then "the emotional John" cold-blodedly accused him of killing his wife, that all despite the fact that he knew the real perpetrator, Vivian Norbury and didn´t care about her at all.
That cruel remark prolonged the mental anguish Sherlock was already in to hours, which, combined with his sorry physical state, lead to an acute suffering and pain.
The wounds inflicted by John were real and lead to the danger that Sherlock´s weak state would deterriorate beyond any help.

And also:

I believe that Sherlock was full of emotions in that TEH scene too. He sincerely wished for reconcilliation. Whatever method he used to reach that reconcilliation, I still see his motive for acting that way as benign.
John beat Sherlock because he lost control over the situation, so there was no motive for beating him beforehand, but after that deed was done, he used it to make Sherlock suffer with his cruel and unjust accusation. This did not elevate his own grief in the long run, but made even the life of somebody elese miserable beyond measure - and that in the situation, when the other party was already blaming itself for John´s pain.


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

January 11, 2017 9:50 am  #111


Re: John's violence

Yitzock wrote:

I don't think we can rope in the "drama queen" comment with it.  I don't think it's violent, like the other examples it is included with.  That moment is an example of how John is a person who can bring Sherlock back to the ground when he goes too far or gets a bit too dramatic.  He keeps Sherlock in check, from going even more over the top. 

I regarded that moment as violent because it was so vindictive and random in the chain of events.
Up to that moment, Sherlock made plenty of activities hateful to him just to please John. He chose dresses for the wedding guests, he folded origami, he made the long wedding speech, he put up with all that...
Sherlock was also the one who deduced in time that Sholto is in danger. Without his quick wit, Sholto would die unnoticed in his room.
So in what way did he deserve to be accussed "you are not the solver of puzzles, you are a drama queen"?
He actually solved the Sholto puzzle on his own?
Also, John was the actual Sholto´s friend - so why did he not persuade Sholto to open the door on his own, but forced the third party with no connection to Sholto (Sherlock) to do it? It actually made the issue harder?
I do not believe this treatment was neccessary to push Sherlock to the right solution. Sherlock is not a trained horse, he does not need a whip to act in this regard. He is a human being endowed with speech and understanding - so the simple "please, do it for me" from John would be more effective, I think.
 

Last edited by nakahara (January 11, 2017 9:58 am)


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

January 11, 2017 9:55 am  #112


Re: John's violence

ancientsgate wrote:

I'm coming late to this discussion, but just wanted to say that I hated what John did to Sherlock. h-a-t-e-d it. Especially the kicking. I can't imagine in god's name what Gatiss was thinking of to include such a thing in "our" show. The Sherlock-John friendship is the biggest draw for me to make me watch, and now he's killing it. Hate it. Hate all of that. Not sure if I'll be watching anymore after next Sunday, if this 3rd ep is as bad as the last 2. Ugh.

I hope that the opening up of John at the end of an episode, his final decision to speak about his problems, his gving way to tears marked the end of this violent behaviour towards Sherlock.... that this was the real catharsis he was searching for.
Othervise it would really look like Sherlock is emotionally chained to a bully.
 


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

January 11, 2017 10:25 am  #113


Re: John's violence

nakahara - drama queen -  it is a foreign langue to me so I may not recognize the subtle differences but the scene seemed to me not like an accusation of Sherlock  but as a reminder of his strong points which are not in long thinking about the problem in a quiet place but ability to solve problems under stress. So I understood it more like supoort from John's side . But as I say, I might be wrong . 

 

January 11, 2017 10:36 am  #114


Re: John's violence

I have always hated the "drama queen" moment and found it terribly unfair. 

In TST we have John calling Sherlock an "arsehole" in the presence of the Welsboroughs. To me this was a new level of not good. John has called Sherlock an utter cock, a dick, all sorts of things. But he always did so when they were alone or in the presence of friends. Saying this in front of (posh) clients feels like overstepping a line to me. But then we have discussed that John quite often seems OOC in this series. 
 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

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January 11, 2017 10:37 am  #115


Re: John's violence

Preceja wrote:

nakahara - drama queen -  it is a foreign langue to me so I may not recognize the subtle differences but the scene seemed to me not like an accusation of Sherlock  but as a reminder of his strong points which are not in long thinking about the problem in a quiet place but ability to solve problems under stress. So I understood it more like supoort from John's side . But as I say, I might be wrong . 

The things I mentioned above are just my personal interpretation of the scene either. English is not my first language either so it´s possible I misunderstood.
The scene just rubbed me the wrong way when I watched it....
 

Last edited by nakahara (January 11, 2017 10:37 am)


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

January 11, 2017 10:40 am  #116


Re: John's violence

I would say they are quite bully, the both of them, if you want to use that term. Mental and emotional manipulation can be just as damaging and hurtful as physical violence.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings
http://i.imgur.com/NzWTIDd.png

Team Hudders!
 
 

January 11, 2017 10:43 am  #117


Re: John's violence

Vhanja wrote:

I would say they are quite bully, the both of them, if you want to use that term. Mental and emotional manipulation can be just as damaging and hurtful as physical violence.

Yes, mental manipulation can be very damaging - but in this particular case it wasn´t damaging to John, in my opinion.
While John´s violence actually hurt Sherlock...
 


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I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

http://49.media.tumblr.com/eb0e156f55878fcd6f89dcf91ae89811/tumblr_o0eyyzrphE1spvwrzo2_1280.gif
 

January 11, 2017 10:59 am  #118


Re: John's violence

I will admit I've not read all of this thread, and I try to stay away... because damn, it triggers me. 

I will never forgive John for this. And it's not just about the scene where he kicks Sherlock when hes literally lying down. 

The last Baker Street scene... Sherlock stuttering; him trying to keep John sweet and praising him for making the deduction. I recognized something in that. Something I never wanted to see 

I am aware that there's a huge chance Benedict was playing Sherlock as going through withdrawals and being vulnerable... but I saw more. 

(as ever I'm over-sharing... so forgive me)

But I saw an abuse victim. I saw the nervous jitters... the fear of it happening again... the need to praise the other person, the fear that any word, any movement you make trigger them; trying not to remind them that they went too far with you... that something you do was what caused it to happen in the first place (which is so not true). 



Like I said, I might be looking too deep... but this is what I saw


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January 11, 2017 11:22 am  #119


Re: John's violence

This Is The Phantom Lady wrote:

I will admit I've not read all of this thread, and I try to stay away... because damn, it triggers me. 

I am aware that there's a huge chance Benedict was playing Sherlock as going through withdrawals and being vulnerable... but I saw more. 

(as ever I'm over-sharing... so forgive me)

But I saw an abuse victim. I saw the nervous jitters... the fear of it happening again... the need to praise the other person, the fear that any word, any movement you make trigger them; trying not to remind them that they went too far with you... that something you do was what caused it to happen in the first place (which is so not true). 

You might be right, everything aims this way  as all the behaviour of Sherlock is trial to protect himself from something. But it is not John. 
Sherlock had his way of living before John and was more less satisfied. John makes him more human but it also mean more vulnerable. I expect to see more on Sunday , to see what happend to him that he made himself that way - Euros? 

 

January 11, 2017 11:25 am  #120


Re: John's violence

nakahara wrote:

Well, when I compare both scenes, I still can´t see how Sherlock´s behaviour was worse than John´s.

I am really not able to tell exactly why I consider mental manipulation worse then physical violence (up to some extend). I just feel it this way.   Yes Sherlock wanted reconciliation which was John not prepared or willing to give at the time so he forced him to do it under death stress. Would it be in reality forgotten in next minute? I do not think so. But if John did not want to kill Sherlock, he had to accept this , but not with healthy laughter more with resignation. 

I think that the state of Sherlock (both physical and mental was also one of reason that lead to beating Sherlock up) . You can see from the beginning that John was upset, did not believed Sherlock , expected another trick from his side how to force him where Sherlock wanted to have him (as a result of the past experience including the bomb, so not easily forgotten). In fact it was a trick but I must admit that now for the first time really selfless irrespective of selfdestruction (even if I suspect Sherlock using drugs also as a way how to deal with  Mary's death, at least at the beginning). But John could not have known it. He was just angry that Sherlock adds his personal problems to his own , destroyed himself with druggs and now wants include John  to the solution while he is not even ablo to solve his own.
Sherlock was ill but he did it to himself, he knew where drugs lead so no excuses, no regret. If he wants to destroy himself, it is up to him but John might have feel it as another manipulation from Sherlock . 

Sherlock was already accusing himself from Mary's death, nothing prolonged , they just had to say it to be able to speak about it. It is not fair to blame John in his situation that he does not care much of his friend feelings when he was not able to deal with his feelings. 

I think we cannot come to an agreement in this as our point of view is totally oposite I understand what you are saying just feel it  different way. 

But what I really liked was the scene in the hospital after John saved Sherlock from CS. There was the  manipulation from Sherlock side revealed   but it was delivered in such cute and acceptable way that was clear that  John is happy it happened (I do not mean now that Sherlock almost died which counts a lot, of course, too)
 

 

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