BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary

SolarSystem · April 12, 2016 12:42 pm

But wouldn't all of this mean that Sherlock was wrong about even more things in the first nine episodes than some of us have suspected already? It would implicate that he didn't get Moriarty right, he didn't get Mary right and that he didn't get CAM right, either.
Don't get me wrong, I love twists, but what I don't like is when they 1.) get too complicated so that you basically can only understand a whole show if you basically re-watch it from the end, and 2.) turn the hero of the show into a dumbo. And this Moriarty-Mary-Magnussen-Mycroft-theory (yes, there is Mycroft as well, if he is somehow involved then Aherlock would have been wrong about his own brother, too) might turn Sherlock into just that: a dumbo.

On the other hand, what I like about this idea is that, if they're doing it right, it would literally give us the downfall of a genius. Sherlock would certainly break if he had to admit to himself that he was fooled so many times by various people, among them people he (seemingly) trusted. The only person (I'm exaggerating here, I know) who didn't betray him would be: John. And it would be the two of them against the rest of the world again.

SusiGo · April 12, 2016 12:47 pm

I do not think that they are all involved in the same scheme, that would be a bit too much. And you would really wonder why Sherlock did not get it earlier. This, btw, is one thing that would point at Mycroft - it is Canon that Mycroft is cleverer than Sherlock. On the other hand Sherlock fooled him with Irene. One may go on speculating but for me it comes down to this:

There are connections we do not know so far and that reach deep into the past. And this is going to be the stuff Sherlock and John have to deal with in series 4/5.

tonnaree · April 12, 2016 1:09 pm

SusiGo wrote:
I do not think that they are all involved in the same scheme, that would be a bit too much. And you would really wonder why Sherlock did not get it earlier. This, btw, is one thing that would point at Mycroft - it is Canon that Mycroft is cleverer than Sherlock. On the other hand Sherlock fooled him with Irene. One may go on speculating but for me it comes down to this:

There are connections we do not know so far and that reach deep into the past. And this is going to be the stuff Sherlock and John have to deal with in series 4/5.

We have to go deeper! Deeper than we've ever gone before!!!

SolarSystem · April 12, 2016 1:15 pm

Where no Consulting Detective and his Blogger have gone before.

SusiGo · April 12, 2016 1:36 pm

And may they live long and prosper.

Harriet · April 12, 2016 1:48 pm

SolarSystem wrote:
Where no Consulting Detective and his Blogger have gone before.

"boldly go where no ..."

besleybean · April 12, 2016 4:23 pm

Well other people are having fun, so I'm going to make a shallow post: I would definitely take Mary or anybody else being an accomplice of Moriarty's...basically anything that means I get to see more Andrew- flashback or otherwise!

tonnaree · April 12, 2016 5:17 pm

You are allowed to be shallow any time you wish BB.
Can't stay in the deep end all the time. You'd drown.

besleybean · April 12, 2016 5:22 pm

God don't.
I am totally petrified of water!

mrshouse · April 14, 2016 12:17 pm

http://archipelagoarchaea.tumblr.com/post/92372390998/the-lie-of-his-last-vow
We've often discussed if anything of Mary's back story in HLV is to be taken at face value or not. I found this interesting meta.

Last edited by mrshouse (April 14, 2016 12:19 pm)

SusiGo · April 14, 2016 12:37 pm

This is a long and interesting meta. Matter-of-fact, plausible with and without Johnlock, thorough - still a rewarding read which TAB has changed not in the least.

Last edited by SusiGo (April 14, 2016 12:37 pm)

besleybean · April 14, 2016 3:44 pm

Well John and Mary remain married and I expect that will be until death do them part...though that maybe in S4.

tonnaree · April 14, 2016 4:03 pm

SusiGo wrote:
This is a long and interesting meta. Matter-of-fact, plausible with and without Johnlock, thorough - still a rewarding read which TAB has changed not in the least.

That was one of the best metas I have ever read. Extremely well stated.

Harriet · April 14, 2016 4:16 pm

I still need to read it.

mrshouse · April 14, 2016 4:26 pm

And as Susi already said, it does not argue with Johnlock. I like that. I like those two issues seperated. What doesn't sit right with Mary has to be diskussed for itself.
Cross, Susi

Last edited by mrshouse (April 14, 2016 4:27 pm)

SusiGo · April 14, 2016 4:26 pm

This meta writer is able to put things in words I have always felt and found difficult to say. And it shows that even without Johnlock a narrative with a redeemed Mary does not make any sense. I think it says something like: In the show there is no room for Sherlock, John, Mary, and a baby. Which is true.

mrshouse · April 14, 2016 4:31 pm

Amen.

besleybean · April 14, 2016 4:48 pm

I think to a certain extent I can agree with that, though maybe not for the same reasons...
I could live with Mary being kept in the show, but I think canonically she has to go.
My only addition to that would be to once again assert, we will see a devastated John at losing the love of his life.

SusiGo · April 14, 2016 4:50 pm

Only if she died as a loving wife and mother. If she were a villain, he might feel different.

besleybean · April 14, 2016 4:51 pm

I think it'll be the former.