BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Series 1/2 and series 3

SusiGo · March 25, 2014 8:13 pm

So this is to continue the discussion.

SolarSystem · March 25, 2014 8:28 pm

So, I'll just copy what I already mentioned in the other thread in here now. It probably doesn't make complete sense, but it might be enough to keep the discussion going.

And I can't tell you what I would have wanted S3 to be, but just like the_dancing_woman I do have the feeling as if S3 is kind of the odd one out in comparison to S1 and S2. And that doesn't mean that I don't like S3, I do, there's lots of great material in it, lots of fantastic and moving scenes. But I had this feeling from the very start when S3 aired and I still have it to some extent: To me S3 doesn't have a consistent flow like S1 and S2 had, it's more as if each episode is more of a stand-alone. And I'm not saying that's bad, I'm just saying that it feels different.

Nevertheless I also agree with a lot of what Susi has mentioned, especially the "profound sadness" we have throughout all three episodes. And that's probably why, despite the aspects that I find a bit problematic, I still like S3 very, very, very much.

Maybe I wouldn't even notice it if in S1 and S2 we hadn't seen how to do it differently - and by 'different' I don't necessarily mean 'better'.
I think that already in my very first post about TEH I used the word "flow" and that I somehow miss a harmonious flow within the episode. And it seems that this is true for the whole of S3, it sometimes feels a bit as if we're jumping from one occasion to the next and that sometimes those jumps somehow lack a totally convincing bond. Or, to put it into more extreme words: it sometimes feels as if various writers have been at work - and sometimes it just doesn't fit.

But I'm going way off topic now, so let me just agree with besleybean: no more weddings, please. Unless of course, it's our two boys who... okay, I'll shut up.

Last edited by SolarSystem (March 25, 2014 8:28 pm)

SusiGo · March 25, 2014 8:35 pm

I will do the same and hope people can make sense of it.

Anyway, here are my thoughts:
I see what you mean but I do not really think that series 2 was better, it was different. In spite of the underlying Moriarty theme there were separate cases to each episode, there was more deduction and investigation work going on. And I agree that Scandal might be the most perfect episode so far, especially regarding the photography and editing.

After watching it for the first time I thought that series 3 was very comedic, too, especially TSoT which in the beginning seemed nearly too comedic. But I have changed my mind by now and I think that series 3 as a whole is characterised by a profound sadness. And this is mainly due to the changes we perceive in Sherlock.

Moftiss have always said that the character would change in the course of the series. I do not really believe that there will be a return to the Sherlock we know from series 1 and 2. In this regard series 3 seems to be a sort of transition from the man who has suppressed his feelings for years in order to fully concentrate on his brain work. His absence and the return to London and the changed world he finds himself in have deeply shaken him and this is what we get to see in series 3. We see a man who tries to reconcile his enormous brain and his emotions and fails more than once. But I think that this is just a phase, that they will show him slowly managing to reconcile those aspects of his character. Maybe he will never again be the cold reasoning machine he sometimes seemed to be in series 1 and 2 but I can live with that. I think there is no way back to a brilliant unfeeling Sherlock accompanied by a breathlessly admiring John. Their relationship has changed and I am excited to see what is going to become of it.

I think what the difference between series 1 and 2 on the one hand and series 3 on the other is that the former feel like a consistent series in which the episodes have quite a similar style (even if they are 90 minutes each) whereas in series 3 we basically get three feature films which differ in cineastic style, mood, etc. And yet important elements of the plot like Sherlock seeking forgiveness and finding back to his life in London as well as Mary's story form a strong connection between the episodes.

tobeornot221b · March 25, 2014 9:29 pm

Just my two cents:

One point S3 is so different from S1 and S2 is that there's no big "good old-fashioned villain" in the tradition of Moriarty, a villain who would cause Sherlock and John to fight him in a "you and me against the rest of the world" manner.

In S3 we have villains who are at least difficult - if not impossible - to fight: Magnussen at one hand, who isn't an actual villain, and Mary who - on the other hand - unexpectedly turns out to be an actual villain.
There is no satisfactory solution regarding fighting these two – whether the villain may be killed or forgiven.

This lack of black and white and clearness concerning the adversaries works against the usual harmony between Sherlock and John. There's hardly a "domestic bliss" or a cosy togetherness at the end of the episodes with the boys walking into the sunset or having dinner.

Yes, I admit: I missed this a bit...

SusiGo · March 25, 2014 9:34 pm

Yes, Tobe, I think many of us missed this. But I think - and hope - that this is the necessary nod to canon. There Watson left 221B as well to get married and returned.

On a more positive note - we get some beautiful and far more personal scenes between the boys which he did not have in the other series. The short moment in the hallway at 221B in TEH will always remain one of my favourites.

tobeornot221b · March 25, 2014 9:42 pm

SusiGo wrote:
The short moment in the hallway at 221B in TEH will always remain one of my favourites.

Yes, the true reunification...

KeepersPrice · March 25, 2014 11:40 pm

Yes, the "I heard you" moment in the hallway was just lovely. And speaking of the hallway in S3, I also love the scene of them lying on the stairs in the hallway, drunk and rather intimately close. (If John had turned just a bit to the left it would have been spooning)

Like so many have expressed, there were things about S3 that seemed to be a fundamental and irrevocable change from what we knew and loved in S1 and S2; and frankly it made me uneasy. That being said, there were also these wonderful funny, touching and beautiful scenes in S3 that knocked my socks off and made me teary. What a dilemma...

Wholocked · March 26, 2014 12:34 am

I think the main difference between seasons 1/2 and 3 is that Paul McGuigan directed 2 of 3 episodes in both seasons 1 and 2. He directed the first episode of season 1 and established some things that flowed through all the episodes (like the texts appearing on screen the way they do). In season 3 he wasn't available so he didn't direct any of them. All three episodes were written by a different person AND directed by a different person. And I don't think anyone who directed a Season 3 episode had previously directed any of the other episodes.

Directors have a hell of a lot to do with how an episode looks & feels and I think that's probably the main reason the Season 3 episodes feel so different.

SolarSystem · March 26, 2014 5:11 am

I'm sure you have a point there, Wholocked, but at the same time: a director has to work with what's on the page, and so I would assume that the writing in S3 has also been a bit different to the writing in S1/2.

I also agree with tobe when it comes to domestic bliss. There just wasn't enough of that in S3 - if any at all. The boys don't share a flat any longer, so where should the domestic bliss come from? It's difficult to achieve without them living together, and I would agree that we really came the closest in the "real reunion scene" and when the boys are lying on the stairs.
There were quite a few scenes that made me tear up, and they always had to do with John and Sherlock and something that went on between the two of them. But it felt different, probably because the circumstances in S3 are different to what we knew from S1/2.

besleybean · March 26, 2014 6:44 am

I really just feel it's joining the dots.
John is finally exposed as a total danger junkie.
Sherlock is exposed as a murderer.
We have the wife-with-a-dodgy-past.
It's heavy stuff and an awful lot to take in.
But fundamentally, Sherlock and John solve crimes...
And we'll have more of that in future, now we've got the stupid wedding out of the way...
Waste of an episode which can't really be afforded in a 3 episode series.
But practically, John is the sort of guy who would get married(then moan about the arrangements)and Mary definitely wanted to be made'legal'.
More importantly, it was a very good episode.
Much of Empty Hearse was taken up with the Reunion.
Altho I don't agree with the hitting...that's John and AGAIN: it was hysterical.
We also wasted loads of time on the Resolution...that's them just playing with us.
CAM was an excellent new villain.

the_dancing_woman · March 26, 2014 9:17 am

To add some more to this newly created thread here are my two posts from yesterday (sorry for compromising the right order of the posts a bit here)

I started rewatching series 2 on Sunday, and I don't know, possibly that's just me feeling a bit nostalgic right now, but I honestly think it was better than series 3 in several aspects. It somehow seemed more traditional Sherlock Holmes, better plots, more twists, more deductions, more brain work going on in general and I think 'A Scandal in Belgravia' to this day is possibly the best episode so far. After seeing the series 2 episodes again I think my biggest wish for series 4 really is to be at least a bit less comedic and to go back to those elegant and artful deductions that made Sherlock so great and also to have some real cases going on. I really don't care that much what they choose from the original canon I just hope they generally go back to canon a little bit more in the next series.
Don't get me wrong I still love series 3 as well, loved the stag night, the reunion and so forth, loved the best man's speech, liked the twist about Mary's character, loved Sherlock showing emotions and weakness for a change. I just don't want series 4 to continue in the same fashion. I want to see series 3 as a nice comedic interlude before they all get down to business again. I thinks HLV was at least getting back in the right direction a bit with Charles Augstus Magnussen as a really perfect villain. But even there we don't get to see Sherlock really being Sherlock Holmes, I mean when it comes to being the master brain we've known him to be in the first two series and in the original stories. I really am a bit apprehensive about series 4 right now, or I am just not putting enough trust in Moftiss again and series 4 will bring us a great turn-around...
Is there anybody out there who feels the same way about this or am I just missing out on some aspects of series 3 here?Last edited by the_dancing_woman (Yesterday 8:09 am)

and my response to your reactions yesterday:

I get all of your points, esp. yours SusiGo. Yes, you're right about the underlying sadness that went all the way through series three, and you're right people and relationships change, I am a big advocat of that anyway. So I know they can't just mysteriously undo all the things they sat in motion with series 3. It would be not very credible if they did. I just hope they will focus on cases more and also that Sherlock will get some of his old spirits back in a way. I don't want him to go back to being a cold reasoning machine, which in my eyes, he never was in the canon anyway, this is how he describes himself but it may not be entirely true. Holmes in the canon shows quite a lot oft sympathy and empathy towards the people who come to him for help and he deeply cares for Watson.
I would just like to see more of canon in the next series, meaning less focus on 'internal' matters and more focus on clients and stories from the 'outside' world.
You're probably right besley, those matters had to be delt with in series three and yes, they more than had their hands full with them on reflection, and character development wise they had a lot to deal with too. I just would like to go a bit back to the roots in the next series and not have them forever resolve internal Holmes/Watson family affairs as a main object of the episodes.
I also think, that Sherlock Holmes would stop being Sherlock Holmes if we wouldn't get to see the master brain come back (not talking about emotional coldness here, well a bit yeah, and it is still there btw, he shot Magnussen not only for John and Mary but also because he couldn't bare to lose the game) and watch him astutely deal with situations again. I want him to be more back in control of himself again.
It's possibly really just me panicking a bit and we will get to see all of this anyway. I mean the further we progress the more Sherlock and John grow up and wasn't it the intention of Moftiss to show the way of young Sherlock to the man he later becomes when we meet him in the books?

I also am with you solar, in saying that series 3 is the odd one out a bit. As I stated above I still loved it, but yeah, it has a completely different ring to it compared to the other two, which is fine for me as long as this isn't the overall new future direction the series is going to take.

http://sherlock.boardhost.com/viewtopic.php?pid=150149#p150149

Last edited by the_dancing_woman (March 26, 2014 9:19 am)

Zatoichi · March 27, 2014 7:43 am

I can sign everything you said, the_dancing_woman.. the hopes and concerns for S4, the mixed feelings about S3.. I feel exactly the same. I try to keep calm and trust the Moftiss, but..*bites her nails*.. it´s not easy!

I also think that Wholocked brought up an important point, the different writer and director for S3.. imo they made a big contribution to the different feeling of S3. It reminds me of the Harry Potter Series, the third one also differed quite a lot from the first two due to a different directing style. They brought it back to the old style in the forth film, so my hope is that the same happens with Sherlock ^^. Not that I want to take back any developments in the characters and their relationships, I agree it had to happen and I´m fine with it, but I could do without so many mood swings and cuts to memories, phantasies and mind palaces. I found it a bit exhausting to follow, but maybe that´s just me getting slow with middle age .

besleybean · March 27, 2014 4:48 pm

We had the same writers for S3, just different directors.

SusiGo · March 27, 2014 4:50 pm

True, but TSoT was written by all three. That was a first.

besleybean · March 27, 2014 5:25 pm

And I liked that development....

SusiGo · March 27, 2014 5:51 pm

Moffat outdid himself with the speech.

besleybean · March 27, 2014 6:03 pm

He certainly did.

tobeornot221b · March 27, 2014 6:15 pm

To me, S3 appears to be a typical "middle part" concerning the S/J relationship.
We can't imagine them being separated forever – so they seem to be as being caught in a kind of intermediate state.
For example, missing each other, neither of them would feel comfortable in their respective flats.

One symbol for this neither/nor state is the hallway in 221.
Normally, a hallway isn't regarded as part of a flat.
So is John. (And – temporarily - his chair.) Not a part of 221B any more.
The hallway (connected with happy memories of the past) occasionally works as a refuge in S3, a place where the boys are being left undisturbed – more or less. In these moments, one can feel the old magic between them.
Not the full 221B for the two of them yet – but there's hope for S4 and beyond.

besleybean · March 27, 2014 6:21 pm

Aw, that's lovely Tobe.

SolarSystem · March 27, 2014 7:22 pm

tobe, a very nice observation and analysis.
Although I would like to add that in TSoT we also see the living room of 221B as a refuge for the boys, at least up to a certain moment when Mrs. Hudson comes in with Tessa. But before they are disturbed Sherlock and John seem to be very comfortable there together. And I know, they aren't exactly sober, so it's probably not the 'real' Sherlock and John we see here. But it was one of those scenes which felt quite familiar to me and bit more like S1/2 than various other scenes did.