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September 4, 2014 5:58 pm  #41


Re: "The two people I love most..."

Why would John think Sherlock wasn't interested in him?
And even then, why wouldn't he marry another man?


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

September 4, 2014 6:10 pm  #42


Re: "The two people I love most..."

besleybean wrote:

Why would John think Sherlock wasn't interested in him?
And even then, why wouldn't he marry another man?

 
" It's not men, its just him. It's only him."


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Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

September 4, 2014 6:13 pm  #43


Re: "The two people I love most..."

This.
And:

tonnaree wrote:

.... he's just too scared to face [his feelings].

 
"I'M NOT GAY!"

Last edited by Mattlocked (September 4, 2014 6:14 pm)


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"After all this time?" "Always."
Good bye, Lord Rickman of the Alan
 

September 4, 2014 6:37 pm  #44


Re: "The two people I love most..."

Snootiegirl99 wrote:

Liberty wrote:

Snootiegirl99 wrote:

I wonder what it says about John and Sherlock's friendship that

A) Sherlock doesn't even try to run Mary off like all the other girlfriends (and she likes him as well).
B) Sherlock is all set to die in HLV but then the thought of letting John down and leaving John vulnerable brings him back.

A. I don't think he deliberately runs off other girlfriends.  That's partly John's doing as well.  There's that scene in ASiB where Sherlock can't remember which girlfriend John's with (the boring teacher), but John also forgets which one she is, and that's what drives her off. 

B. I think he's very protective, and has protected and saved John before - I think it's in character that that would be a driver for him.  It's the same person who sacrificed two years of his life and went through hell to save John (and others, but John's his main pressure point).

 
Yes, but what do those things say about their friendship and how deep it is?

Sherlock simply accepts Mary because she accepts him. She wants him in John's life whereas none of the others did. And her reflection of their connection is important to building their relationship in the story arc.

And is it only a protective instinct, or is it more? Sacrificing two years and going through torture says it's a deeper trust and connection than just a protective feeling.

My opinion is that they are in love whether it's a physically-manifested love or not.

I'm still thinking about Sherlock accepting Mary in terms of what he knows/suspects, but Mary is John's pressure point after all.  She's important to John and the other ones haven't been.  (And also they have an established relationship when Sherlock returns).  I'm just saying that I don't think Sherlock really did go out of his way to drive off the others, and I don't think they really tried to drive him off either.  He seemed to be growing to like Sarah, for instance.

I'm not going to quibble too much over being in love versus loving each other.  As I've said, I think loving a friend can feel like being in love, so I don't think there has to be a distinct difference, unless you feel that being in love has to include a sexual element.  (I don't think there's a sexual element there).  I do think coming back from the dead really is about protecting John.  I'm not saying that that's all he feels for John, obviously, but that that's why he's so motivated to come back - to protect him.  That's what it feels like to me.  
 

 

September 4, 2014 6:54 pm  #45


Re: "The two people I love most..."

That is definitely too weak in wording. Protection is only a little part of a greater whole.

Last edited by mrshouse (September 4, 2014 6:55 pm)


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Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

September 4, 2014 7:14 pm  #46


Re: "The two people I love most..."

The thing is that Sherlock does so much more for John than for everyone else, Mrs Hudson and Lestrade included. He helps him lose the crutch, chooses to stay with John at the pool, he fakes his death, he goes out of his way to prepare the wedding and save Sholto's life, he comes back from death and shoots Magnussen (because he surely does it not just for Mary if at all). 
Just imagine for a moment that John was a woman. No one would say, oh look, he is her best friend and tries to protect her. You would say, gosh, he must love her very much to do all that. 

Last edited by SusiGo (September 4, 2014 7:14 pm)


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

September 4, 2014 7:17 pm  #47


Re: "The two people I love most..."

Edit: was typing when you posted, Susi!  We do say that Sherlock loves John, don't we?  It doesn't need a gender switch.

@mrshouse and Snootie, about Sherlock protecting John:
The words that wake him up and bring him back are "John Watson is definitely in danger".  That's when his eyes flash open and he comes back to life - to save him. 

It's not the selfish love of wanting to be with him, even ... after all, at the end he gives up being with John to save John (again!).  It's the selfless love of putting John before himself.  He'll protect him at any cost.  Even putting his own life on the line (again ... !) by coming out of hospital, in extreme pain and risking cardiac arrest, to protect John.  How is that a little thing?

Last edited by Liberty (September 4, 2014 7:27 pm)

 

September 4, 2014 7:25 pm  #48


Re: "The two people I love most..."

I agree with you about Sherlock's love being the selfless. For me this is one of the beauties of the show - selfless love versus selfish love. Protecting another's life and happiness at all cost versus ensuring that you keep the other's love. 
I am convinced that Sherlock's love for John is stronger than Mary's. And I really hope that one day John will realise that as well. 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

September 4, 2014 7:28 pm  #49


Re: "The two people I love most..."

Possibly depends what happens with Mary.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

September 4, 2014 8:03 pm  #50


Re: "The two people I love most..."

tonnaree wrote:

besleybean wrote:

Is this not a bit of a soap opera plot?

 
The way the story is executed is what makes it not a soap opera.

 
My husband says SportsCenter is soap opera for men. Soap operas are just stories that go as far as possible to tittilate.

 

September 4, 2014 8:08 pm  #51


Re: "The two people I love most..."

Quite.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

September 4, 2014 8:21 pm  #52


Re: "The two people I love most..."

SusiGo wrote:

The thing is that Sherlock does so much more for John than for everyone else, Mrs Hudson and Lestrade included. He helps him lose the crutch, chooses to stay with John at the pool, he fakes his death, he goes out of his way to prepare the wedding and save Sholto's life, he comes back from death and shoots Magnussen (because he surely does it not just for Mary if at all). 
Just imagine for a moment that John was a woman. No one would say, oh look, he is her best friend and tries to protect her. You would say, gosh, he must love her very much to do all that. 

 
Y. E. S.

 

September 4, 2014 8:31 pm  #53


Re: "The two people I love most..."

But he isn't and it possibly wouldn't matter to Sherlock anyway.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

September 4, 2014 8:36 pm  #54


Re: "The two people I love most..."

RIght, it doesn't matter to Sherlock anyway 


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

September 4, 2014 8:42 pm  #55


Re: "The two people I love most..."

SusiGo wrote:

I agree with you about Sherlock's love being the selfless. For me this is one of the beauties of the show - selfless love versus selfish love. Protecting another's life and happiness at all cost versus ensuring that you keep the other's love. 
I am convinced that Sherlock's love for John is stronger than Mary's. And I really hope that one day John will realise that as well. 

I think that if the books are anything to go by, Sherlock's relationship with John will be the enduring one.  To be fair to Mary, there isn't a point where she has to sacrifice herself to save John, so we don't see how she would react.  And she has a baby-on-the-way to protect, so more reason to protect herself.   But I don't feel that she has the same selfless love that Sherlock has.

Yes, I think Sherlock's love is rather beautiful, uncomplicated and pure.  And by pure, I don't mean that it's not sexual, although I really don't think it's sexual.  It's more that he doesn't seem to question it the way John does.  We don't get any idea of an internal monologue of "why am I doing this for this guy?  Is he worth it?  Is it reciprocated?".  He feels and acts, protects and saves.  On the one hand, I really, really want John to see that, and on the other hand, I like the tension that difference provides. 

 

September 4, 2014 8:43 pm  #56


Re: "The two people I love most..."

Oh I think John knows...both at Appledore and on the tarmac.


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http://professorfangirl.tumblr.com/post/105838327464/heres-an-outtake-of-mark-gatiss-on-the
 

September 4, 2014 9:01 pm  #57


Re: "The two people I love most..."

Well, maybe you're right.  The shooting is pretty unambiguous.  But does John really know that Sherlock is going off to death for him?  I'm not sure. 

 

September 4, 2014 9:09 pm  #58


Re: "The two people I love most..."

I have nothing of substance to add, but just reading this thread makes me feel like I'm glowing with its warmth.

I knew there was a reason I loved this show.


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Don’t move, don’t speak, don’t breathe. I’m trying to think.

 
 

September 4, 2014 9:22 pm  #59


Re: "The two people I love most..."

I understand you very well. Sherlock's love for John in series 3 is really a beautiful thing to watch. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

September 5, 2014 4:35 am  #60


Re: "The two people I love most..."

Liberty wrote:

SusiGo wrote:

I agree with you about Sherlock's love being the selfless. For me this is one of the beauties of the show - selfless love versus selfish love. Protecting another's life and happiness at all cost versus ensuring that you keep the other's love. 
I am convinced that Sherlock's love for John is stronger than Mary's. And I really hope that one day John will realise that as well. 

I think that if the books are anything to go by, Sherlock's relationship with John will be the enduring one.  To be fair to Mary, there isn't a point where she has to sacrifice herself to save John, so we don't see how she would react.

Well, I think we get an idea of how she might react. She risked killing his best friend to protect her own happiness even though she knew exactly how much Sherlock's faked death has hurt John.
Meaning, she risked hurting John to avoid emotional hurt for herself.


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I still believe that love conquers all!

     

"Quick, man, if you love me."
 

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