Swanpride wrote:

If we only have a look at the first two episodes, I see a lot of evidence that there is something going on with Mary - but none that she might not love John, or that she is not supportive of Sherlock, quite the opposite in fact.

To be honest, even in the first two episodes I had the feeling that something wasn't quite right with Mary, because she just was too good to be true for my taste. She was so positive and so understanding and funny and witty... which is all good and fine, if not even: a bit boring. But at the same time to me it also signaled that it or rather: she wasn't meant to stay that way.
So what we got in HLV was just a logical development after TEH and TSoT - although I didn't really expect them to go with an ex-assassin-thing, and my first reaction to it was Oh please, really...?

 

Last edited by SolarSystem (March 10, 2014 11:53 am)

Swanpride wrote:

Sherlock has a redemptive character arc, too.

Using the term 'redemptive' implies that someone has done something really, really bad; right up until the moment Sherlock killed CAM Sherlock had not done something really, really bad, and thus Seasons 1-3 cannot accurately be described as a redemptive character arc.
 

besleybean wrote:

I would actually contest that definition of redemptive...
I don't think it has to be something really bad.
It can just mean an obligation.

Well, redemptive is an adjective and obligation is a noun, so I'm having some difficulties in working out exactly what you mean. 

Redemptive is almost always used in a quasi religious sense; it's tied into Christian thought and in particular the notion of sacrificing oneself for the good of others, thought to be embodied in the crucifixion.

One can redeem an object of value from the pawnbroker, but it is highly improbable that someone would regard or describe that as a redemptive act; on the other hand, Sherlock's willingness to take on the mission to Eastern Europe which he expects to result in his death can accurately be described as a redemptive act since the good of others is best maintained in a society where people take responsibility for their actions...
 

Lil

I agree; we are watching, along with Lestrade, the process by which Sherlock becomes a good man, and not just a great man, and Moftiss are not going down the well trodden primrose path of saying that Sherlock was a bad man who becomes good because people love him, or he loves them.

He can strive not to let it drag him down, and that is what I think the writers are showing us; there was immense potential for bitterness and regret over his failure to believe what his mind told him about Mary, and yet he didn't go that way.

And as Oscar Wilde noted, forgiving ones enemies really annoys them

Sorry, but I really cannot accept placing Sherlock on the same level with Mary. This is utterly against everything SH stands for and has always stood for. With all due respect to your wish to defend Mary but this is just wrong. 

Swanpride wrote:

For Sherlock is the same true as for Mary: We don't know exactly what they did and why they did it. For example Sherlock has changed from someone who apparently had no idea how to handle a weapon (or at least had utterly disregard to gun safety) to someone who uses it expertly...we assume that Magnussen was his first kill, but we don't know.

I'm not sure how expert you have to be shoot someone at short range; you are making assumptions without any evidence to support them. Our Sherlock may not have peppered the wall with a patriotic VR, but then Victoria is no longer Regina.

I do find it very strange that people seem to think that slagging off Sherlock seems, in some mysterious fashion, to turn Mary into a tragically misunderstood figure.

We know very little about Mary; we know that she is an exceptionally skillful liar, that she kills people for money because she thinks people deserve to be killed, that she shot and came very close to killing Sherlock, that she threatened him in hospital after she shot him, that after that she hunted him across London with a loaded gun, and that she tells John that if he knew who she was he would stop loving her.

Swanpride wrote:

It's entirely possible that she went on a more or less legit undercover mission which went badly wrong

Mary acquired her new identity 5 years earlier; what sort of legit undercover mission involves a CIA operative stealing the identity of a dead baby in England? I would have thought that the CIA could manage something rather better planned than that. And it is not entirely possible; it completely contradicts what she says to John...


 

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

Swanpride wrote:

Actually Magnussen says something along the line that it seems like she "freelanced"...meaning either he wasn't sure about it, or he can make it look like she did. It's entirely possible that she went on a more or less legit undercover mission which went badly wrong. And I am pretty sure that she had a silencer beforehand too...I doubt that any operative would work without one.

So, why would she tell John that the information on the flashdrive A.G.R.A.-- would send her to prison for the rest of her life? If it's just a mirror of Sholto's situation, why couldn't she just come clean? Sholto not only took the responsibilty for his actions, but also shouldered the blame-- even though he didn't deserve to be scapegoated as he was. 

Sherlock takes responibilty for killing Magnussen; and shields John from being implicated, by making sure that he does it in front of a lot of witnesses. And he submits to punishment for the crime. 

All I see Mary doing is lying and running, and hiding, and harming anyone that threatens her cover, it just doesn't say to me that she was *ever* on the side of the angels. 

Yes: we never see Mary showing the slightest interest in the consequences of her actions beyond those which directly affect her; everything else is collateral damage which she ignores, because, as long as she has what she wants, everything's fine.

And I do feel that the test of 'what would Sherlock's loved ones think' of what she has done is a valid one since it punctures the bubble of sentiment which, at least some, fans erect around her with the old familiar mantra of 'because she loves John'' as if anything and everything can be disregarded 'because she loves John'. 

For example, Molly loves Sherlock, but she has never displayed any desire to kill John to give her a better chance of taking his place alongside Sherlock solving cases; the notion is so selfevidently ludicrous when you spell it out in black and white that it's a useful counter to all the warm and fuzzy stuff.

Mind you, following my less than stellar experience at the Royal London today I can tell you two things; the outpatients department (plastics clinic) is archetypal cruddy hospital decor, hence my not bothering to take a photo, and that the entire computer system for the entire hospital was down with no idea of when it would come back up. Thus, even after a two hour wait, there was no way to make contact with the labs, and no way to access the surgeons notes, which makes a tad difficult to do anything meaningful.

Wish me luck Wednesday morning, when I'm going back there; who knows, they may have got the computers working again, so I am still hoping that I may be on the plane to San Diego next Monday.

However, I thought that the total systems crash at the RL might be useful to you, fanfic wise, and therefore worth writing it up for you




 

Willow wrote:

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

Swanpride wrote:

Actually Magnussen says something along the line that it seems like she "freelanced"...meaning either he wasn't sure about it, or he can make it look like she did. It's entirely possible that she went on a more or less legit undercover mission which went badly wrong. And I am pretty sure that she had a silencer beforehand too...I doubt that any operative would work without one.

So, why would she tell John that the information on the flashdrive A.G.R.A.-- would send her to prison for the rest of her life? If it's just a mirror of Sholto's situation, why couldn't she just come clean? Sholto not only took the responsibilty for his actions, but also shouldered the blame-- even though he didn't deserve to be scapegoated as he was. 

Sherlock takes responibilty for killing Magnussen; and shields John from being implicated, by making sure that he does it in front of a lot of witnesses. And he submits to punishment for the crime. 

All I see Mary doing is lying and running, and hiding, and harming anyone that threatens her cover, it just doesn't say to me that she was *ever* on the side of the angels. 

Yes: we never see Mary showing the slightest interest in the consequences of her actions beyond those which directly affect her; everything else is collateral damage which she ignores, because, as long as she has what she wants, everything's fine.

And I do feel that the test of 'what would Sherlock's loved ones think' of what she has done is a valid one since it punctures the bubble of sentiment which, at least some, fans erect around her with the old familiar mantra of 'because she loves John'' as if anything and everything can be disregarded 'because she loves John'.

For example, Molly loves Sherlock, but she has never displayed any desire to kill John to give her a better chance of taking his place alongside Sherlock solving cases; the notion is so selfevidently ludicrous when you spell it out in black and white that it's a useful counter to all the warm and fuzzy stuff.

Mind you, following my less than stellar experience at the Royal London today I can tell you two things; the outpatients department (plastics clinic) is archetypal cruddy hospital decor, hence my not bothering to take a photo, and that the entire computer system for the entire hospital was down with no idea of when it would come back up. Thus, even after a two hour wait, there was no way to make contact with the labs, and no way to access the surgeons notes, which makes a tad difficult to do anything meaningful.

Wish me luck Wednesday morning, when I'm going back there; who knows, they may have got the computers working again, so I am still hoping that I may be on the plane to San Diego next Monday.

However, I thought that the total systems crash at the RL might be useful to you, fanfic wise, and therefore worth writing it up for you




 

Good luck!!! You folks have got me writin' up a storm, so thank you!!

I agree. Although I think this is actually the third situation in which she is ready to kill him. 

She was prepared to kill him at the office (and, yes, she did not go for the head, we had all this before, but still).
Then she threatened him in his hospital room. Imagine he had been fully conscious and refused to keep quiet about all this to John - what do you think would she have done? Fiddled with the taps? The oxygen?
So this here is actually the third time she is prepared to kill Sherlock. 

(And I must say I really cannot believe Amanda's interviews about Mary being redeemed and all that). 

It wasn't like Sherlock wasn't threatening himself in that scene. Bringing Mary to an empty house, the story of him gambling with a female cannibal, placing her face on the house, and the whole place was really isolated so who wouldn't believe someone was planning something devious? To Mary, she thought Sherlock was going to kill her or something. It wasn't actually a very cordial meeting. 

Mary cocks her weapon in an attempt to tell Sherlock she is ready for anything he was going to try on her. She didn't expect John to be there or Sherlock actually tricking her into telling John who and what she really is.