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January 16, 2014 3:52 pm  #1


Some thoughts about Sherlock and Mary

Many of us, including me, are still quiet baffled about Mary's development in this series and more so about the way Sherlock treats her. I have been thinking about this for some days and wish to share my thoughts with you. 

I started with an essential question: What could Sherlock have done differently considering the situation as a whole? And my answer is: not much. Why?

Let us think a moment of how this all starts. Sherlock returns after having allegedly jumped to his death in the front of John's eyes. He soons realises that things have changed, that John has moved on, that he is not willing to forgive him and that John has found someone to love. A woman that makes John happy, that John is about to propose to in the very moment Sherlock reveals that he is not dead. 

In his deductions of Mary we see the word "liar" popping up. So Sherlock realises something is off with her. Why does he not warn John? Imagine what would happen if he did. "Your soon-to-be wife is a liar. Keep away from her and come back to me." John would nevey buy that but think Sherlock behaved in the usual outrageous way towards his girl friends. And Mary is so much more to him than just a girl friend. She saved him when he was desperate and turned his whole life around. 

And then in TSoT he deduces she is pregnant which again changes the situation. Now there are three Watsons for him to protect. John always comes first but when John's happiness depends on Mary Sherlock is willing to like and protect her as well. 

Then there is HLV. The shooting scene is so intense and you feel for Sherlock and I was really furious with Mary. I think she might have shot to kill him whatever Sherlock says later on. She may be an ex-agent, an assassin, whatever Moftiss make her, but this is not the point. The point is: What could Sherlock have done differently? 

Send her to prison so that the child would grow up without her mother? Let her go and divorce her and see his daughter every second weekend at best? Have Mycroft create a new identity for her in South America which would not have solved the question of what happens to John and the child?

I have come to the conclusion that for Sherlock there is only one way to handle this - make John stay with her whatever it costs them. And therefore he tries to make John believe (I am not sure John really craves a dangerous wife) that he chooses and needs such people in his life. He wants them to try and create a life together with their child even if there will be a shadow lying over them. This may be a twisted logic but I think for Sherlock it is the only way to stay true to his vow. 

IMO this is not a sentimental but a matter-of-fact way of dealing with these shocking facts. There are facts Sherlock cannot change - the marriage, the baby, Mary's past, Mary nearly killing him - but he can change the way John perceives Mary and he can influence John's decision about their future.

Which is an enormous sacrifice. But then most of the things Sherlock does in this series are about sacrifice. In a way he atones for what he did to John and this culminates in his shooting CAM. 

Well, this has become longer than expected but I had to get it off my chest. 

P.S. Please note that this is not about "what could have been" or "what Moftiss should have done" but a reflection on the facts we are presented with in the episodes. 

 

 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

January 16, 2014 4:41 pm  #2


Re: Some thoughts about Sherlock and Mary

Very interesting thoughts. Thanks!
I have to think about some before I can give a proper response.

 

January 16, 2014 4:49 pm  #3


Re: Some thoughts about Sherlock and Mary

Thanks for your thought, Susi! They are in fact quite interesting and very thoroughly displayed!

I agree with most of what you say. There is one more option Sherlock would have had after the scene in the empty house, and that would be to do nothing. John surely would have left Mary and went back to him.

That breaks it down to the question of Sherlock's prioritities: whether his own happiness comes first or the one of John (and Mary, according to the vow). I think the episode answered this question quite clearly.

Thanks again, Susi.


The Game is On!
 

January 16, 2014 4:55 pm  #4


Re: Some thoughts about Sherlock and Mary

I agree with you. John might have returned but what about the child? Mary being pregnant totally changed the dynamics. I cannot believe John would leave his unborn child to live with Sherlock. That would be completely out of character. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
     Thread Starter
 

January 16, 2014 5:16 pm  #5


Re: Some thoughts about Sherlock and Mary

SusiGo wrote:

I agree with you. John might have returned but what about the child? Mary being pregnant totally changed the dynamics. I cannot believe John would leave his unborn child to live with Sherlock. That would be completely out of character. 

And we know from the scene at the parents' house that Sherlock's mother gave up a brilliant career as a mathematician to have children; Sherlock thinks that is the way that motherhood works. It's a hopelessly romantic view, but then Sherlock is hopelessly romantic in a lot of ways...


 

 

January 16, 2014 6:40 pm  #6


Re: Some thoughts about Sherlock and Mary

I pretty much agree with everything you say here, Susi. There is just one point where I slightly disagree. What I've been asking myself lately: When Sherlock deduces Mary in TEH and the word "liar" pops up - what does he do with this information? I assume that he doesn't know what exactly it is that she's lying about. Did he just decide to ignore it? If so, why did he not try to find out more about this? I'd like to believe that if he found out about her past very early, and if he had been able to present proof of that to John, that things might have developed differently.
You said that John probably wouldn't have believed Sherlock if he's just told him that he deduced Mary to be a liar. But with proof...? I know, proof or not, it wouldn't have been easy for John to accept this.
But I really wonder why Sherlock apparently just ignored his own deduction...? Was it really just to protect John? Sherlock didn't even really know from what he was protecting him by not telling him about this, right?


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

January 16, 2014 7:11 pm  #7


Re: Some thoughts about Sherlock and Mary

SolarSystem wrote:

I pretty much agree with everything you say here, Susi. There is just one point where I slightly disagree. What I've been asking myself lately: When Sherlock deduces Mary in TEH and the word "liar" pops up - what does he do with this information? I assume that he doesn't know what exactly it is that she's lying about. Did he just decide to ignore it? If so, why did he not try to find out more about this? I'd like to believe that if he found out about her past very early, and if he had been able to present proof of that to John, that things might have developed differently.
You said that John probably wouldn't have believed Sherlock if he's just told him that he deduced Mary to be a liar. But with proof...? I know, proof or not, it wouldn't have been easy for John to accept this.
But I really wonder why Sherlock apparently just ignored his own deduction...? Was it really just to protect John? Sherlock didn't even really know from what he was protecting him by not telling him about this, right?

the liar thing I think is interesting. my way of looking at it is that sherlock thought he could control the situation. he knew mary was a liar so in some ways, whats the issue? in sherlockland at least. sherlock knows john is a bit of a loose canon, who will kill, who seeks out danger etc. yet thats not a problem for him in the slightest. i don't know how much her being a liar matters to him, if he can expect to be able to detect specific instances of lying iyswim.

 


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Sherlock Holmes "The question is, has she been working on something deadlier than a rabbit?"
John Watson : "To be fair, that is quite a wide field"

The Hounds of Baskerville
 

January 16, 2014 7:15 pm  #8


Re: Some thoughts about Sherlock and Mary

Solar, I see what you mean. But remember the situation in which he makes the deduction. They have met again just this evening, John has attacked him three times in a row and seems unwilling forgive him or continue their friendship. And Mary promises to help him with that. 
I suppose he does not know about what or why she might be lying. So maybe he suppresses the knowledge and concentrates on the reconciliation with John. Of course it is a mistake but he does make mistakes. IMO this is a grave but understandable one.
 

Last edited by SusiGo (January 16, 2014 7:16 pm)


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
     Thread Starter
 

January 16, 2014 7:26 pm  #9


Re: Some thoughts about Sherlock and Mary

I have to say I feel a bit differently about this. I don't think Sherlock's motivation was only to make John happy. He wants Mary to stay because he likes her as a friend, possibly almost as much as he likes John.
Remember that before TEH Sherlock had been away for two years, and during that time he was lonely. When he returns he realises that he's not content with living alone in his flat anymore. He wants his friends back. Most of all he misses John. But the situation is difficult. Mary is the first person to support Sherlock. During the argument between Sherlock and John when they first meet again, she sides with Sherlock almost immediately. Her reaction seems a bit odd at first, considering all the grief she has surely seen her boyfriend go through, but after learning what kind of person Mary actually is it's understandable. Probably she has more in common with Sherlock than with John. She doesn't think Sherlock is abnormal because they're more or less like-minded people. She makes it possible for John and Sherlock to get back together. Sherlock sees that she's a liar but ignores it because she's important to him. Lying isn't very suspicious anyway. If he had seen "murderer" or so he might have said something, but who isn't a liar?
It's true that Mary almost killed Sherlock in HLV. And still he isn't very angry with her, probably because it's a thing he would have done himself. According to his deductions from his point of view it was logical. He even says the most logical solution would have been to actually kill him by shooting him in the head. But "sentiment got the better of you". In other words, Mary didn't kill him (or at least tried her best to keep him alive) because she likes him too much. She tried to do the best for all three of them - save Sherlock's life, make sure her husband won't become a suspect and still leave the building without getting caught. From the point of view of people like John (or us) the whole thing is madness, but I'm sure Sherlock has a lot of respect for such a clever solution. He probably thinks if John has to have a wife it better be someone like Mary.

Last edited by QuiteExtraordinary (January 16, 2014 7:26 pm)


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He’s got a dog. We go to the pub on weekends. I’ve met his mum and dad …

… and his friends and all his family and I’ve no idea why I’m telling you this.
 

January 16, 2014 7:31 pm  #10


Re: Some thoughts about Sherlock and Mary

I know this might sound silly but could "liar" not pop up when Sherlock was deducing just about anyone?  I mean the one word was surrounded by a lot of positive things.  Might Sherlock assumed that the liar just represented something that is a part of all of us?

Don't know that I expressed that very well.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

January 16, 2014 7:33 pm  #11


Re: Some thoughts about Sherlock and Mary

Yes, he does like Mary. For example he lets her touch him, kisses her and they exchange looks that show a special understanding. And he made his vow to the whole Watson family. 
We mean basically the same - if you want to understand this you cannot apply any conventional standards for human behaviour. Sherlock was and is different. And that is what appeals to us. 
 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
     Thread Starter
 

January 16, 2014 7:40 pm  #12


Re: Some thoughts about Sherlock and Mary

tonnaree wrote:

I know this might sound silly but could "liar" not pop up when Sherlock was deducing just about anyone?  I mean the one word was surrounded by a lot of positive things.  Might Sherlock assumed that the liar just represented something that is a part of all of us?

Don't know that I expressed that very well.

That's what I meant, who isn't a liar. Sherlock surely is.

SusiGo wrote:

Yes, he does like Mary. For example he lets her touch him, kisses her and they exchange looks that show a special understanding. And he made his vow to the whole Watson family. 
We mean basically the same - if you want to understand this you cannot apply any conventional standards for human behaviour. Sherlock was and is different. And that is what appeals to us. 
 

Didn't he even say he hates Magnussen so much because Magnussen threatens people who are different? All of Sherlock's friends are "different" somehow. But they're good people after all.


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He’s got a dog. We go to the pub on weekends. I’ve met his mum and dad …

… and his friends and all his family and I’ve no idea why I’m telling you this.
 

January 16, 2014 7:43 pm  #13


Re: Some thoughts about Sherlock and Mary

Yes, when Sherlock said that I was instantly reminded of his talk with Mycroft about people who are different. It seems that Magnussen hit a weak spot and thereby caused Sherlock's deep disgust. 

And I am not sure if we are done with Sherlock's deductions about Mary. What about the word "guardian" that has not been explained so far? The others are quite ordinary but this could mean a lot of things. And then there is also CAM's hint at her family in the telegram. 

Last edited by SusiGo (January 16, 2014 7:45 pm)


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
     Thread Starter
 

January 16, 2014 7:53 pm  #14


Re: Some thoughts about Sherlock and Mary

Of course 'Liar' could pop up for anyone, however, in all the deductions he has made before this word has never appeared so frequently. I do not believe that Sherlock would disregard this.


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Don't make people into heroes John. Heroes don't exist and if they did I wouldn't be one of them.
 

January 16, 2014 8:15 pm  #15


Re: Some thoughts about Sherlock and Mary

The writers explained pretty well in the podcast why Sherlock doesn't do a proper deduction on Mary. They explain it better than me so anyone who is interested in that question I suggest to listen to the podcasts, it's in the HLV part somewhere. Basically, when we really like someone, we don't want to see the bad sides and we ignore and deny them. 

The other thing: I agree that Sherlock does not do everything just for John. He and Mary have an instant connection and understand each other. She had to fake her own death too and she's probably protecting people from her past (hence 'guardian'). She understands what he's been through and visa versa. 

 

January 16, 2014 8:24 pm  #16


Re: Some thoughts about Sherlock and Mary

silverblaze wrote:

The other thing: I agree that Sherlock does not do everything just for John. He and Mary have an instant connection and understand each other. She had to fake her own death too and she's probably protecting people from her past (hence 'guardian'). She understands what he's been through and visa versa. 

Right, I didn't even realise up to now that she's also a member of the "I faked my own death" club.
 


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He’s got a dog. We go to the pub on weekends. I’ve met his mum and dad …

… and his friends and all his family and I’ve no idea why I’m telling you this.
 

January 16, 2014 8:26 pm  #17


Re: Some thoughts about Sherlock and Mary

This club seems to be growing. How could John fit in? 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
     Thread Starter
 

January 16, 2014 8:57 pm  #18


Re: Some thoughts about Sherlock and Mary

That's Sherlock and Mary, maybe Moriarty might join too. 

 

January 16, 2014 9:00 pm  #19


Re: Some thoughts about Sherlock and Mary

Gosh! Another thing I must have overlooked; I recall Sherlock noting that she had faked her identity but I don't think that there was anything there about her faking her own death.

Excuses for watching it again to check it are always welcome, but I'm having difficulty with the idea of Sherlock investigating it from his hospital bed after he had been shot, not least because research takes time, and a decent wifi connection, which he didn't have in hospital. If he had bothered to check up on Mary's X, the usher, then I really doubt that he would not have looked at Mary at all.

And then there's Mycroft whose life revolves around seeing connections; I very much doubt that he would have omitted a security check on the fiancée of his brother's best friend. It goes with the territory, and Mycroft is not a guy who would overlook the blindingly obvious...

 

January 16, 2014 9:09 pm  #20


Re: Some thoughts about Sherlock and Mary

silverblaze wrote:

That's Sherlock and Mary, maybe Moriarty might join too. 

Do not forget Irene. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
     Thread Starter
 

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