BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012.


You are not logged in. Would you like to login or register?



January 14, 2014 8:29 am  #61


Re: Janine and...transport

lindyhopper883 wrote:

The Janine story was probably the one part of the episode that really got to me. I know the fake engagement was right out of cannon, but the way Sherlock treated Janine was pretty awful. The canon books are full of what would now be considered sexism but was acceptable then, I just think that maybe the writers could have modernised their interpretation so that Sherlock wasn't such an ass. I feel like as a modern day woman I should be appaled at how Sherlock treated Janine. And I was. But then the scene ended with shirtless Benedict Cumberbatch and I forgot my anger... (Oh the irony!) 

aw, but don't be offended. If Jeanine had been a (gay) man and Sherlock thought that by asking them out he would have gotten the info he wanted, he would have done it anyway. He didn't go, Oh, she's a woman, will be easy to trick...

 

January 14, 2014 8:31 am  #62


Re: Janine and...transport

And yes, we have established they did NOT have sex - we are just gossiping basically.

 

January 14, 2014 8:52 am  #63


Re: Janine and...transport

I laughed so hard at the Janine - thing. John's reaction was soooo wonderful.
And Janines visit in the hospital was great.

By the way: Am I strange when I would never have an engagement with anyone who wouldn't really have sex...
 


-----------------------------
“Why do you go away? So that you can come back. So that you can see the place you came from with new eyes and extra colors. And the people there see you differently, too. Coming back to where you started is not the same as never leaving.”
Terry Pratchett - A Hat Full of Sky
 

January 14, 2014 11:30 am  #64


Re: Janine and...transport

So, when she sold her story to the press...why did she not sell it on the fact that they didn't have sex? Bearing in mind the innuendoes previously in the press this might have been a better tack. A kiss and tell sex story is not unusual. A kiss and tell no-sex story, is.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't make people into heroes John. Heroes don't exist and if they did I wouldn't be one of them.
 

January 14, 2014 11:33 am  #65


Re: Janine and...transport

But people wouldn't believe that, even if it was written by the Daily Mail 


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

January 14, 2014 11:40 am  #66


Re: Janine and...transport

I agree that they didn't have sex together, the discussion in the hospital is clear enough.
I am not sure if he regrets the possibility to have this relationship though. When John and sherlock discuss in the elevator, sherlock says something like : 'I suppose that after that she won't want to see me again, but you are the women expert'. Sorry if I quote badly, I just watch it once and it is what I remember... Could it mean that he would have liked to continue seeing her ?


'The world is full of obvious things which nobody by any chance ever observes'
 

January 14, 2014 11:50 am  #67


Re: Janine and...transport

Victoire wrote:

I agree that they didn't have sex together, the discussion in the hospital is clear enough.
I am not sure if he regrets the possibility to have this relationship though. When John and sherlock discuss in the elevator, sherlock says something like : 'I suppose that after that she won't want to see me again, but you are the women expert'. Sorry if I quote badly, I just watch it once and it is what I remember... Could it mean that he would have liked to continue seeing her ?

I don't think so. I think it just shows that he calculated the whole thing through and knew that he wouldn't even have to withdraw his proposal, because she would just break it off herself afterwards.


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

January 14, 2014 2:22 pm  #68


Re: Janine and...transport

lindyhopper883 wrote:

The Janine story was probably the one part of the episode that really got to me. I know the fake engagement was right out of cannon, but the way Sherlock treated Janine was pretty awful. The canon books are full of what would now be considered sexism but was acceptable then, I just think that maybe the writers could have modernised their interpretation so that Sherlock wasn't such an ass. I feel like as a modern day woman I should be appaled at how Sherlock treated Janine. And I was. But then the scene ended with shirtless Benedict Cumberbatch and I forgot my anger... (Oh the irony!) 

 
The only reason it didn't bother me more was because it did't seem to bother Janine all that much.  And lord knows she got some rewarded for it with the tabloids.

RE:  Shirtless Sherlock in the hospital.  It seems to me that this was all very gratuitous.  In real life he certainly would be wearing a hospital gown.  Not that I ever have a problem with gratuitous shirtless Sherlock!  


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

January 14, 2014 6:07 pm  #69


Re: Janine and...transport

I'm not bothered either. Sherlock is a sociopath, that's the way he rolls. And she did get a nice cottage out of it 

 

January 14, 2014 6:32 pm  #70


Re: Janine and...transport

I have a conspiracy theory.
I don't buy the Janine story at all. Romance or not, I just can't believe that she could be that stupid. I mean, she first met Sherlock at the wedding, where he made a rather harsh speech against romantic love and marriage in general (afterwards he admitted that wasn't very nice but he didn't really take it back). That was in May. HLV takes place in autumn if I saw that correctly. So we're supposed to think that only about five months later Janine is head over heels in love with Sherlock and believes that her feelings are reciprocated? So much that she does anything he asks of her, stays in his flat overnight (apparently more than once) although he's not there, and doesn't even notice that he's using drugs? She believes all his lies although they're extremely obvious? Apart from that, in Baker Street she doesn't exactly act as if there's so much romance in their relationship. With her behaviour and her comments she makes it seem as if it's mostly about sex. Later it turns out that wasn't the case at all.
Then her reaction in the hospital after she broke up with Sherlock. If she had been so in love, shouldn't she be crying? Where are the emotions? She's triumphant because the press published her stories and that's it. She even says something along the lines of "we could have been friends". So she got over him that quickly?
I suspect there was something else going on. Sherlock made a big issue of not wanting anybody to enter the bedroom. It's possible that there was something in the bedroom, maybe also in the bathroom, that nobody else was supposed to see. Janine's actual task might have been to distract John. On a cue she would walk out of the bedroom, only half dressed (John would of course be very impressed by that), and then act as if she was doing things with Sherlock in the bathroom to make sure John wouldn't go in there either. Then Janine and Sherlock would put on a show to make sure John didn't ask too many questions about other things. That worked perfectly. See, it's not even been two days and I'm already overanalysing everything.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
He’s got a dog. We go to the pub on weekends. I’ve met his mum and dad …

… and his friends and all his family and I’ve no idea why I’m telling you this.
 

January 14, 2014 6:48 pm  #71


Re: Janine and...transport

QuiteExtraordinary wrote:

I have a conspiracy theory.
I don't buy the Janine story at all. Romance or not, I just can't believe that she could be that stupid. I mean, she first met Sherlock at the wedding, where he made a rather harsh speech against romantic love and marriage in general (afterwards he admitted that wasn't very nice but he didn't really take it back). That was in May. HLV takes place in autumn if I saw that correctly. So we're supposed to think that only about five months later Janine is head over heels in love with Sherlock and believes that her feelings are reciprocated? So much that she does anything he asks of her, stays in his flat overnight (apparently more than once) although he's not there, and doesn't even notice that he's using drugs? She believes all his lies although they're extremely obvious? Apart from that, in Baker Street she doesn't exactly act as if there's so much romance in their relationship. With her behaviour and her comments she makes it seem as if it's mostly about sex. Later it turns out that wasn't the case at all.
Then her reaction in the hospital after she broke up with Sherlock. If she had been so in love, shouldn't she be crying? Where are the emotions? She's triumphant because the press published her stories and that's it. She even says something along the lines of "we could have been friends". So she got over him that quickly?
I suspect there was something else going on. Sherlock made a big issue of not wanting anybody to enter the bedroom. It's possible that there was something in the bedroom, maybe also in the bathroom, that nobody else was supposed to see. Janine's actual task might have been to distract John. On a cue she would walk out of the bedroom, only half dressed (John would of course be very impressed by that), and then act as if she was doing things with Sherlock in the bathroom to make sure John wouldn't go in there either. Then Janine and Sherlock would put on a show to make sure John didn't ask too many questions about other things. That worked perfectly. See, it's not even been two days and I'm already overanalysing everything.

sorry, but I have to interfer here.
The scene with Janine in Baker Street takes place 1 month after the wedding. It is directly after John took Sherlock out of the drug den (remember, Sherlock went to have a bath to refresh himself). Sherlock had no clue that John would be around in that moment as he didn't know that he would meet him at the drug den. Therefore there is no point in setting up Janine in order to prevent John to go into the bedroom or the bathroom.

I have to admit, though, that Janine's reaction on the break-up was not very emotional. On the other hand she already had enough time to sell her story to the newspapers, so who nows how much time has passed and how much she maybe cried before.


The Game is On!
 

January 14, 2014 6:53 pm  #72


Re: Janine and...transport

Swanpride wrote:

It doesn't bother me from a feminist pov, because Janine got her revenge. And I am not even sure if she wasn't well aware of Sherlock dublicity when he showed her the ring. After all Magnusson was still in the building. Perhaps she did it on his behest. Or she did it, because she wanted Magnusson taken down, too. After all, he flicked into her face, too - it must have been torture to work for a guy like that.

Hey, good point!  Why did Janine let Sherlock come up in the elevator if Magnussen was there in the apartment?  Wouldn't she be afraid of Mr. Faceflicker getting really pissed when he walked in and found Sherlock there? His reaction to that would mean serious consequences for her.

As for the questions presented in several earlier posts, I wonder if perhaps Janine was actually faking the relationship just as much as Sherlock.  She may have done it all just to sell a juicy sex-filled story to the tabloids about her "relationship" with the famous Mr. Studlock Holmes.  That would certainly explain why she put up with a boyfriend who practiced both absence and abstinence (both of which make the heart grow fonder, if you think about it . . . yuck,yuck, yuck . . .  )
 
Her comment in the hospital indicates she actually wanted to have sex with him. (I refuse to say "sleep with him".  When people want to sleep together they take Lunesta.  When they want to do something else, the man takes Viagra.  It's hardly the same thing, right?)
 
Anyway, Janine seems a lot smarter if we don't assume she bought everything Sherlock told her.  And our hero doesn't seem like quite the cad for doing all that lying . . . and absolutely no laying, if you catch my drift.
 

Last edited by Bruce Cook (January 14, 2014 6:56 pm)


A good debate is like a fencing match — you don't have to win to get a good workout.
 

January 14, 2014 7:01 pm  #73


Re: Janine and...transport

QuiteExtraordinary wrote:

I have a conspiracy theory.
I don't buy the Janine story at all. Romance or not, I just can't believe that she could be that stupid. I mean, she first met Sherlock at the wedding, where he made a rather harsh speech against romantic love and marriage in general (afterwards he admitted that wasn't very nice but he didn't really take it back). That was in May. HLV takes place in autumn if I saw that correctly. So we're supposed to think that only about five months later Janine is head over heels in love with Sherlock and believes that her feelings are reciprocated? So much that she does anything he asks of her, stays in his flat overnight (apparently more than once) although he's not there, and doesn't even notice that he's using drugs? She believes all his lies although they're extremely obvious? Apart from that, in Baker Street she doesn't exactly act as if there's so much romance in their relationship. With her behaviour and her comments she makes it seem as if it's mostly about sex. Later it turns out that wasn't the case at all.
Then her reaction in the hospital after she broke up with Sherlock. If she had been so in love, shouldn't she be crying? Where are the emotions? She's triumphant because the press published her stories and that's it. She even says something along the lines of "we could have been friends". So she got over him that quickly?
I suspect there was something else going on. Sherlock made a big issue of not wanting anybody to enter the bedroom. It's possible that there was something in the bedroom, maybe also in the bathroom, that nobody else was supposed to see. Janine's actual task might have been to distract John. On a cue she would walk out of the bedroom, only half dressed (John would of course be very impressed by that), and then act as if she was doing things with Sherlock in the bathroom to make sure John wouldn't go in there either. Then Janine and Sherlock would put on a show to make sure John didn't ask too many questions about other things. That worked perfectly. See, it's not even been two days and I'm already overanalysing everything.

Had there been anything like that between them I think we'd have known during the hospital scene. Plus the first scene at Sherlock's happens only one month after the wedding, in June. The truth is probably far simpler - Sherlock used her, while Janine was probably infatuated, flattered and proud to have piqued the interest of a celebrity. In the end she was never hopelessly in love with him, and being an intelligent, witty girl she immediately saw the potential for money and revenge.

 

 

January 14, 2014 7:13 pm  #74


Re: Janine and...transport

John said it had been a month since he last saw Sherlock, not necessarily that it's been a month since the wedding iirc. And if it was only one month that makes the story even less credible IMO.
Ok, I'll have to rewatch the episode again and pay more attention, especially to the Janine scene (which I really don't feel like paying attention to though).


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
He’s got a dog. We go to the pub on weekends. I’ve met his mum and dad …

… and his friends and all his family and I’ve no idea why I’m telling you this.
 

January 14, 2014 7:48 pm  #75


Re: Janine and...transport

I thought they forgave each other so quickly because their connection was real. They understood each other and were basically just good friends. And she immediately got her revenge so after that the air was cleared again. 

 

January 14, 2014 10:11 pm  #76


Re: Janine and...transport

So I just watched it again (the scene at Baker Street), and I'm convinced that they're both faking. And she's torturing him. I think in their dialogue she's threatening Sherlock to tell John the truth. And the kiss in the end was not Sherlock's intention but she did it on purpose because she knew he didn't like it and he had to play along.
Or maybe that's just the only way I can deal with that scene because otherwise I find it too awful. I just refuse to believe that anyone could be so stupid, and I don't understand how their "relationship" is supposed to have worked before that day.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
He’s got a dog. We go to the pub on weekends. I’ve met his mum and dad …

… and his friends and all his family and I’ve no idea why I’m telling you this.
 

January 14, 2014 10:29 pm  #77


Re: Janine and...transport

QuiteExtraordinary wrote:

So I just watched it again (the scene at Baker Street), and I'm convinced that they're both faking. And she's torturing him. I think in their dialogue she's threatening Sherlock to tell John the truth. And the kiss in the end was not Sherlock's intention but she did it on purpose because she knew he didn't like it and he had to play along.
Or maybe that's just the only way I can deal with that scene because otherwise I find it too awful. I just refuse to believe that anyone could be so stupid, and I don't understand how their "relationship" is supposed to have worked before that day.

But you're just like ignoring all their following interactions  

It was not a ruse, the hospital scene is proof enough. Why would they need to keep up the charade when it's just the two of them in the room? First, she accuses him of being a "backstabbing, heartless, manipulative bastard" (to which he responds with a "fame-hungry whore"), then confesses to having lowered his morphine, finally she clearly and wistfully tells him: you shouldn't have lied, you know, we could have been friends. That right there tells us she knows she's been manipulated. She's being honest, they're both being honest in this scene.

Janine wasn't stupid. Sherlock is a hyper-intelligent sociopath. He knows perfectly well how to be charming and how to play boyfriend, he's spent his whole life observing the behaviour of "the lessers" while not partaking in it, much like an anthropologist. Plus, he's a celebrity, handsome (if somewhat reptilian), well-dressed when he's not slumming it with heroin addicts, maddeningly charismatic, well-educated, probably wealthy and plays the violin like a pro. How could you blame her for believing, or wanting to believe, him?

Last edited by shezza (January 14, 2014 10:31 pm)

 

January 14, 2014 10:55 pm  #78


Re: Janine and...transport

Swanpride wrote:

Just because he lied to her, it doesn't mean that he succesfully manipulated her. It is possible that she saw through his lie from the get go - she certainly walked away from this as a big winner.

I see your point, but still I remain of the opinion that he did successfully manipulate her, as is evidenced by her reaction when she's alone with him: she lowers his morphine, then insults him - she's clearly a woman scorned. Had she been so clever as to see through Sherlock's lies, I think she would have told him in that moment "ha! I knew it from the start, you know, you smartass". But she doesn't, which I think is proof enough that she was simply blindsided.

The fact that she walks away from the whole story with a nice cottage in the Sussex Downs is a tribute to her resourcefulness.

Last edited by shezza (January 14, 2014 10:55 pm)

 

January 14, 2014 11:24 pm  #79


Re: Janine and...transport

Nope, she actually did the whole shocked-and-delighted-hand-on-heart-gasp thing. Actually, I think John told her. How else would she know? Mmmm.

 

January 14, 2014 11:35 pm  #80


Re: Janine and...transport

He succesfully manipulated her, she understandably got angry and got her revenge, but she doesn't hate him. I think she believes that she also saw who he truly was and that he was in essence a good person. She may very well have been right. And indeed, CAM can't have been a very nice boss so maybe she secretly applauded Sherlock's action. 

 

Board footera

 

Powered by Boardhost. Create a Free Forum