The Empty Hearse » The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer?? » January 4, 2014 2:46 pm |
macytree, go ahead and start a new thread. I will comment as soon as I cooked dinner for my guests . I think, it's a subject worth speculating about, because,
if Anderson isn't completely gaga, his fantasy reveils a few things, and don't forget, he was a police officer at the time of the jump, so he should have some inside information.
The Empty Hearse » The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer?? » January 4, 2014 2:41 pm |
Wholocked, I brought this point up, because Anderson seems to assume, that Moriarty is dead (as I do as well). But you are right, what exactly happened to his body, might be worth a new thread. I think, it's worth speculating about. I guess, many people assumed him to be in Sherlock's grave, but if we go by what Sherlock told Anderson, then this Sherlock lookalike should have been probably buried for him.
The Empty Hearse » The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer?? » January 4, 2014 2:29 pm |
KKKKK, I liked Moriarty as a villain very much, too, but I really don't think, he will be brought back. Mofftiss have been VERY unambigouos about that point. So, if they are not flat out deceiving us, or change their mind in a very spectacular way, I don't think, we will see him again, or, only in a review kind of way, should they choose to tell us more about the jump. But I'd still like to know, if the public is aware of his death, and what happened to his body. At least Anderson seems to assume, that he is dead.
The Empty Hearse » The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer?? » January 4, 2014 1:09 pm |
Mattlocked, they explained it thrice, and called the most plausible, albeit flawed one into question with Anderson's and their own remarks after the airing. And there are so many loose ends, that you could make a paint brush out of them all. That's not proper explaining, at least IMO. But again, it's a matter of taste, some loathe it, others think, it's brilliant.
The Empty Hearse » The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer?? » January 4, 2014 1:02 pm |
Well, if they don't tie up all the loose ends a little better, fans won't get invested that much into the show any longer. What use is it to go all over the clues with a toothcomb, if one cannot be sure, if it's even worthwhile. It's debatable, if that would be a good thing or not. It would save us a good deal of our time in real life. I for one have dinner guests tonight and should be shopping and cooking, lol! On the other hand, as a lover of the Golden Age mystery novels and my passion for solving riddles, the show would lose a good deal of it's appeal for me. I would still watch, since I love the actors, and the writing is still good, but for me it wouldn't be the same. But again, we really can't know, which direction this is going before season three isn't finished. I wonder, what we will discuss tommorow night....
The Empty Hearse » The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer?? » January 4, 2014 12:49 pm |
I liked the kiss and the hair ruffle, too! But it was Anderson's theory, which makes it doubtful... Is Anderson secretly in love with Molly, and his subconscious played him a trick?
On a more serious note: to put all Moriarty return theories to bed, has there ever been a public acknowledgement, that Moriarty's body has been found and that he is dead? Anderson fantasizes about a mask on Moriarty's dead body. Does that mean, he knows about Moriarty being dead? If so, where did his body end up in the end? It cannot have been on the roof, because then Anderson wouldn't speculate, that Moriarty's body had been used. Or has Anderson gone completely gaga? Or Mofftiss didn't think this through and just wanted their gag, which was a good one, btw.
The Empty Hearse » The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer?? » January 4, 2014 12:19 pm |
silverblaze and anja, I had the same thoughts, lol! Wouldn't it be a hoot, if theory 2 was it? That Anderson dismissed it wholesale, is strong evidence, that this must simply be it! We can all stop speculating now
The Empty Hearse » The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer?? » January 4, 2014 11:58 am |
jacco111, unfortunately, they don't have to give us a clear cut answer. If they decide, they like it that way, it's their artistic decision. That doesn't mean, we have to like it, though. Maybe, this discussion is more fruitful, when we have seen all new episodes.
The Empty Hearse » The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer?? » January 4, 2014 11:51 am |
anja, you could well be right, but it is still ambigouos to me, and Mofftiss' remarks make it even more so. They could well have closed the lid on the whole discussion by closing the scene with Andersons's remark of disappointment. With his breakdown they keep it deliberately open IMO. As I said, some fans love it, others hate it.
The Empty Hearse » The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer?? » January 4, 2014 11:46 am |
besleybean, though I also thought, that the place was weird, I took it the same way as you. That it was time to tell the truth. I really can't make up my mind, if that was it, or if something more will transpire. The scene at the end seemed to indicate, that eventually, Sherlock will tell more to John. A lot of theory 3 is plausible, but there are elements in it, which are just too weird, but if I knew, that was it, I'd just move on, as others have done
The Empty Hearse » The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer?? » January 4, 2014 11:35 am |
Sherlock Holmes, I'm with you. Everybody's taste is different. Some think, this uncertainty is brilliant. I belong to the faction, who wants a clear explanation, however flawed. Maybe, what Anderson heard, was it, period. But Anderson says himself: 'Why would he tell ME?' That makes it pretty ambigouos to me. And Mofftiss said themselves, that it is a plausible theory, but why would Sherlock tell Anderson? Maybe, they are just messing with us, but that makes it ambigouos.
The Empty Hearse » The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer?? » January 4, 2014 11:04 am |
Mrs.Wenceslas, I agree. That's the most jarring part of theory No 3. Even, if i let the need for an extra body on the pavement slide, the existence of a believable double, who winds up conveniently in Molly's morgue, is just too much. And think about it: even, if such a doppelgänger existed and was willing to do some stage work for Moriarty, and was killed after frightening the little girl, wouldn't Moriarty destroy this body? This would be exactly the kind of evidence, which would clear Sherlock from the suspicion of having been involved in the kidnapping, and Moriarty knew, that Molly was very familiar with Sherlock. She would recognize the similarity, too, especially, since the suspicion of Sherlock was out there. Masks can be very realistic, btw. We've seen one on Moriarty at the beginning of TEH. Was pretty good, wasn't it? And a man, wearing a Sherlock mask, would only have to show himself briefly, maybe in darkish light, to frighten the girl.
The Empty Hearse » The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer?? » January 4, 2014 8:52 am |
hey, tobeornot221b (I still like your moniker), what's presumptuos about expressing a strictly personal preference? My concern isn't based on this one review out there, there are others, which took note of this tendency. And other fans might be perfectly happy about the tone of the show. We will know more pretty soon...
The Empty Hearse » The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer?? » January 4, 2014 8:07 am |
silverblaze, this line of Mycroft and the way, he looked at John convinced me early on, that Mycroft was in from the very beginning. He knew, what was coming and felt very sorry for John. and he kept tabs on him all the time. He could tell Sherlock right away, where he could find John..At least the part of Mycroft's involvement in theory 3 is probably true.
silverblaze, I kind of expected, that the new episode wouldn't clear up everything. It was too good a cliffhanger, lol! I didn't expect, that some of us might start all over debating again. And this might go on for a while. Next episode probably won't bring much more clarity. I've read a spoiler free review, and it says, the next episode will be a fluffy piece of wedding cake, with crime solving being postponed for at least 40 minutes into the episode. The review said, it is a lot fun with some great punchlines, but I wish, they would go back to their crime solving best with some gravitas. Moriarty might be dead, but there are still other baddies out there. I really hope, 'Sherlock' doesn't go down the comedy alley completely.
The Empty Hearse » The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer?? » January 3, 2014 11:13 pm |
Mattlocked, you're right about the quote, and I just wanted to correct it. But the whole exchange, and Mycroft's attitude towards John makes me think, that the pretended death was, what they were aiming at, since they weren't just out for Moriarty but for the whole network. That was the point of this whole long term operation.
The Empty Hearse » The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer?? » January 3, 2014 10:56 pm |
I believe, Sherlock wanted to 'die' (pretend to be dead) all along, because he told Molly so in TRF. Molly asks Sherlock in that very touching laboratory scene, if he is alright, and that he is always looking sad, when he thinks, John cannot see him. Sherlock admitts after denying it first, that he is not alright, and then says: 'Molly, I'm going to die'. Her answer is (strangely, I think): 'What do you need?'. At that point, Sherlock couldn't know at all, what Moriarty had in store for him on the rooftop, but he was already sad, because he might not see Sherlock for a while, or knew, that he was going to make him sad. And remember, Mycroft also feels sorry for John, when they meet in his club, before the whole plan of Moriarty materialized. He says: 'I'm sorry" to John in a very emotional way. We all thought back then, he was apologizing for his blunder, but we now know, there was no blunder. He was feeling sorry for John, because of what was in store for him: Losing Sherlock at least for a while. So, yes, I think most of the other plans of Mycroft and Sherlock involved pretending to be dead, too. Because that way, he could operate undercover against Moriarty's net.
The Empty Hearse » The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer?? » January 3, 2014 9:58 pm |
I also believe, Moriarty is dead. But I for one am mightily interested, what kind of back up plan they had in store, if Moriarty hadn't been such a team player and offed himself. Remember, Sherlock didn't want Moriarty to get arrested or just killed. Sherlock wanted to 'die' in order to dismantle Moriarty's net incognito. It is all good and well, to be told about 13 different plans. You could say, it's just a tv show, and if they tell us, there were plans, we have to take it. But I find it very unsatisfying, because I have a very hard time to think of other workable plans, which have at least some plausibility.
The Empty Hearse » The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer?? » January 3, 2014 9:29 pm |
stayin alive, I don't share your optimism re: Moriarty's eventual comeback, but you've got a few points: My biggest gripe with ALL theories was always, that Moriarty had to be dead or out of the way somehow. What, if he hadn't killed himself obligingly? Do we really think, he wouldn't have taken a look after Sherlock jumped? Did Mycroft's people plan to take him down? What then? Many fans believed, that Sherlock had planned all along to talk Moriarty into committing suicide. I'm glad, that the writers didn't go down that alley and shut the door on that theory, by having Sherlock say, that he didn't know about Moriarty's suicidal state of mind, even if there might have been a lingering death wish. I won't go into detail here, because it opens up a whole new can of worms, and most people don't want to discuss TRF anymore in debth. But it may well be, that the version, Sherlock told Anderson, is intended to be an 'official' or 'understood to be true' version for a while. An important clue may be, that it was taped. Such a version has to be at least semi plausible and cover some ground. But who knows, what Mofftiss have in mind for future episodes or seasons. But if there is more to the jump than we were told so far, we will certainly get a hint at the end of this season. If such a hint won't be given, I will believe in theory No 3, however flawed it may be.
The Empty Hearse » The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer?? » January 3, 2014 6:14 pm |
swanpride, if you want to read more about the logics (or illogics) of the lookalike body, you should visit finalproblem.tumblr.com. The author is set to cover the ground and tries to detect holes or at least continuity problems with theory No 3 in a pretty convincing fashion. It's an ongoing process right now. She has maintained this tumblr for almost two years, with a hiatus of activities, when all possible lines of discussions were exhausted. It's fun to read, if you still want to linger. If not, she advises herself to move on and not read it .
The Empty Hearse » The theory he told Anderson - The actual answer?? » January 3, 2014 4:30 pm |
Mattlocked, I agree, if they come up with a cliff hanger of epic proportions, they should know, what was coming in the age of the world wide web and technically unlimited viewing possibilities. But do you agree, that the whole thing would've been much less effective, if they hadn't shown us the actual crash of the body?