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The Six Thatchers » First impressons and discussions » January 5, 2017 3:22 pm

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Sorry, if I bore some people with my love for Agatha Christie. But  for what it's worth: according to Wikipedia "The Murder Of Roger Ackroyd" has been voted in 2013 as the "best crime novel ever written". Now, that sounds like something Mofftiss might definitely be drawn to. Amanda Abbington said at Comicon that TST tries to do something which has never been done before on tv. Now, what could that be? Could it be that Mofftiss tried to channel Agatha Christie's famous novel with it's devillishly unreliable narrator? I'm not sure if I like this idea at all, but I wouldn't put it past Mofftiss. That would certainly pull off the rug under our feet as they threatened to do in S4.
The only hints we have are the hints at Agatha Christie and the mounting signs that in TST a very unreliable narrator was at work.

Edit: the more I'm pulling at this thread, the more I discover: the murderer of Roger Ackroyd was a nice and respectable doctor - not unlike the Dr. Watson of Doyle's novels. And he was the ASSISTENT of the detective - which in this case is Hercule Poirot, Christie's version of a great and enigmatic detective...
I still refuse to join the voices who wisper that John has killed Mary...seems to be a development too extreme....

The Six Thatchers » First impressons and discussions » January 5, 2017 3:06 pm

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sherlocked wrote:

....Christie never repeated this. It's something which can be pulled off successfully only once.

 
I just read the wiki entry on "unreliable narrator". Interestingly "The Murder Of Roger Ackroyd" is listed as a famous and controversial example of an unreliable narrator. It's well worth looking it up, because Christie has done a lot things we suspect Mofftiss have done with TST.
And I have to correct myself. She has done it again decades later in "Endless Night", a novel where a husband kills his newly wedded wife because he has a lover, although deep down he loves his wife. It's also brilliantly done. It's done so differently from Roger Ackroyd that again the reader doesn't suspect a thing.

The Six Thatchers » What will happen to Rosie? » January 5, 2017 2:48 pm

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Mothonthemantel wrote:

I loved the scene with Sherlock and the rattle too. He called the baby Watson !
I really thought I would hate Sherlock with the baby scenes before. But   

 
Mothonthemantel, for some reason Sherlock's speech to Baby Watson was one of my favorite moments in an episode I personally don't care  all that much about - yet. I also loved the interaction between Sherlock and Archie in TSOT. I guess I like it so much because it's done without any sentimentality and artificial sweetness at all. And Sherlock simply treats children very much like grown ups - even Baby Watson. He isn't condescending at all. Of course he can be horribly honest, too, as shown in ASIB,when he tells his youthful clients what happens to a body after death, or in the case of the girl with the glowing rabbit in HOB. But I liked that attitude, too.
So, the way it is handled in the show I'm good with Sherlock and children.

The Six Thatchers » First impressons and discussions » January 5, 2017 2:32 pm

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There were a few allusions to good old Agatha Christie in that episode. That was one of the things I liked about the episode. I'm a big  fan of the Queen of Crime. "By The Pricking Of My Thumbs" which is quoted by Sherlock,  is not only a line from Shakespeare but also the title of an Agatha Christie novel about elderly people caught up by their criminal past and their former spy activities. The murderer turns out to be an old and slightly gaga lady with an astonishingly long criminal record. Virtually nobody suspected her. Then there's this other Agatha Christie title "Appointment With Death" which could also have been a fitting title for TST. I wonder if we will be treated to a murder mystery a la Agatha Christie in connection with Mary's death.  All the setlock talk about alibis and guns thrown into the Thames might hint at a more old fashioned murder mystery. Would be nice.
Btw, in connection with the narrator's perspective which we have discussed lately:  Agatha Christie also wrote the groundbreaking novel "The Murder Of Roger Ackroyd" where the whole plot is narrated by the murderer himself,  culminating in a posthumous confession of the narrator in his diary - but unlike in Columbo episodes where we know right away who has done it,  the reader isn't in on it all. It's done extremely wittily and skillfully by Christie. The end catches you completely by surprise. First reaction is always that this is unfair towards the reader. But it's done so skillfully that you cannot even call it a case of an unreliable narrator. Nothing of importance is withheld from the reader. You have a fair chance of solving the mystery. But of course the narrator manages to give everything a spin which throws you totally off the scent. Christie never repeated this. It's something which can be pulled off successfully only once.

The Six Thatchers » First impressons and discussions » January 5, 2017 2:08 pm

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Mothonthemantel, I agree. I think it's very likely that this death scene never happened as it has been shown to us - just like CAM's death never happened as it is shown on the doctored footage. It simply looks too openly unrealistic and physics defying. Why would they show it in such an unrealistic way? And if you look closely at the footage it's quite possible that Mary was shot from behind and we see an exit rather than an entrance wound. The force of the shot from behind could've thrown her in front of Sherlock. In TAB we have been lectured about the physics of getting shot - maybe for more than one reason?
I'm just not ready for jumping to the conclusion that John must've shot her. But obviously it must've been someone present in the aquarium, and it certainly wasn't the jellyfish.

The Six Thatchers » What will happen to Rosie? » January 5, 2017 1:55 pm

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In canon Sherlock Holmes retires to a nice country cottage in order to grow roses. So, maybe Sherlock eventually retires to a nice country cottage in order to raise Rosie
Honestly, I have no idea what will happen to her. While I can also understand as a mother the strains of early parenthood, I couldn't spot many moments of pure joy emanating from the new parents and was puzzled by this apparent continuous lack of enthusiasm displayed by John and Mary. Something feels very off to me. To me they seem to be absolutely dutiful but not really doting parents. They seem to be so stiff - like when the first fotos are taken by Molly and Mrs. Hudson. You see a lot of the stress and none of the joy. Even the colors are drab when the fotos are taken.  When John plays with her he seems to look almost sadly at her. For me the nicest interaction with Rosie was Sherlock berating her about constantly throwing the rattle. That was pure undiluted Sherlock.  Maybe, the makers wanted to avoid mawkishness and artificial sweetness. Fair enough. Or we see it all through Sherlock's  less than enthusiastic eyes. But Sherlock seems to have a knack with children. He is certainly unorthodox in his methods but he's good with them -as has been shown in TSOT with little Archie before the wedding. He even berates Mycroft because all he can come up with about Rosie, is, that she seems to be functional.
I sure don't know what's up with Rosie and where it will all end. But I don't want her to die.

The Six Thatchers » The Memory Sticks and AGRA » January 5, 2017 12:13 pm

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I don't think we see proper mind palace sequences all the way through this episode. But there are a number of hints that we all see many sequences as they play out in Sherlock's mind. There are many hints because apparent continuity errors are about things Sherlock could not have known about from first-hand experience - like on which side of the bed John and Mary prefer to sleep. Some sequences are shown twice and in slightly differing versions - as if the narrator isn't quite sure about what really happened. But I have a hard time to make up my mind about the memory stick. We are shown a flashback from HLV where John throws it into the fire. Since Sherlock wasn't there when it happened and since he apparently believes that Mary destroyed it, this flashback sequence cannot have come from the inside of  Sherlock's mind. It's what objectively happened. So, not everything we see in TST is distorted through the lense of Sherlock's mind. Which makes it even more difficult to distingush what's real and what's coming from an unreliable narrator called Sherlock 

The Six Thatchers » Hellish tropes » January 5, 2017 11:34 am

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Mothonthemantel, Hell in Norway is probably a beautiful place. I would love to live in Norway - and have a boat, even one which has the strange name Speckled Band. Maybe it belongs to Jim, who hides behind the identity of a simple fisherman 

The Six Thatchers » Hellish tropes » January 5, 2017 11:13 am

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I don't share this interpretation and have a hunch that Sherlock was alluding to something more specific - although probably not Hell in Norway 
. But as long as we have nothing else to go on I can't come up with a better alternative explanation.

The Six Thatchers » Mary's death and final message » January 5, 2017 11:06 am

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Yes, mothonthemantel, that was my point. Mrs. Hudson had it for a while. We don't know when the dvd arrived and how long it was with Mrs. Hudson. That's why we think that Mary could well have sent it before she went on the run or while she was on the run. She apparently didn't leave instructions that the dvd should only be sent after her death, because in this case she would've said on the recording: " When you hear this I WILL be dead".

The Six Thatchers » Mary's death and final message » January 5, 2017 11:01 am

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Yes, mothonthemantel, that's the reverence to canon.

The Six Thatchers » Mary's death and final message » January 5, 2017 10:52 am

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Ok, yes, you are right. They are not just grieving over Mary running away. Norbury dates it securely.
In this case it's indeed puzzling that Mary doesn't try to retrieve or at least locate or speak about  it. Sherlock clearly doesn't know about it since he thinks it's from Moriarty.

The Six Thatchers » The Memory Sticks and AGRA » January 5, 2017 10:51 am

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TheOtherOne, you might be onto something. I can't figure it out either right now. But I don't like the apparently mounting count of continuity errors. I saw immediately that the memory stick in the bust looked very much like the one which has been so intensely discussed in HLV. And it's hard to believe in a coincidence since the makers would've had ample time to correct such a mistake. And Sherlock's contention that Mary destroyed the stick is indeed very puzzling, since we've seen moments before a flashback which clearly shows that John destroyed the stick.

The Six Thatchers » Mary's death and final message » January 5, 2017 10:42 am

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Liberty, Sherlock might indeed have watched the dvd while Mary was still on the run. That might be the reason why Mary - as far as we know - never tries to intercept or talk about it. When she got caught up with Sherlock might've simply told her: " Got your dvd btw - although a bit delayed because it was sitting in Mrs. Hudson's stack".

The Six Thatchers » Hellish tropes » January 5, 2017 10:33 am

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Mothonthemantel, I find it intriguing, too. Especially since all the talk about hell might well tie back somehow to Sherlock's arcane conversation with Jim Moriarty on the rooftop of St. Barths, when  Sherlock says: "If you want to shake hands in hell I shall not disappoint you". This has never been fully explained, and most people settled on a vaguely metaphorical explanation.
I just thought it would be extremely funny if Jim did indeed fake his death and went to Hell, Norway, in order to hide.  And Sherlock promisses  to visit him there eventually. But he failed to do so. That's why Mary prompts him to make good on his promise and tells him: "Go to Hell, Sherlock ... Jim Moriarty is waiting for you!" And they all meet in  beautiful Hell in Norway and shake hands 
Sorry, just kidding. But the many layers and confusing time lines are really getting to me.

The Six Thatchers » Mary's death and final message » January 5, 2017 10:19 am

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Since Mary says, she will  probably be dead when the dvd is watched, we can safely conclude that she did NOT leave instructions that the dvd should be sent after her death. In that case she would've said: " When you watch this I WILL be dead". Therefore she probably recorded and sent the dvd before she went on the run.

The Six Thatchers » Mary's death and final message » January 5, 2017 10:13 am

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TheOtherOne, very good points! Mary might indeed have recorded and sent this before she ran away - and this scene might show Sherlock  and Mrs. Hudson watching it before Mary died! It might also explain why Sherlock is relatively calm and decides just to go on with his cases. The time line of this episode is devillish 
But in this case Sherlock's activities before Mary died might've all been related to the case of saving John Watson.

The Six Thatchers » POLL: Your first impression (pre TLD and TFP!) » January 5, 2017 10:02 am

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gently69 wrote:

Tbh I was disappointed. Any fear I had were fulfilled. But I still try working on it. To get more references.

I really disliked it, too, at first. I'm still not very fond of it. I found it muddled, too busy with all the onscreen overlays and messages and I didn't like the overall action saturated story arc. But I decided to postpone final judgement until I've seen all episodes. I said elsewhere that the script might turn out to be a lot cleverer and more multi-layered than we thought at first viewing. I do hope I'm right about this. Otherwise the many continuity errors would add up to a staggering number.
While I don't enjoy analysing the episode very much I sure got very interested in  how it all will play out in the following episodes.
 

The Six Thatchers » Mary's death and final message » January 5, 2017 9:47 am

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Liberty, yes, I also wonder if she wouldn't have talked to Sherlock about the dvd if she really sent it before or while she was on the run. And Sherlock clearly doesn't expect a message from Mary. He thinks it's from Moriarty. But we should keep the time delay because it was sitting in Mrs. Hudson's stack in mind. The delay might turn out be meaningful somehow.

The Six Thatchers » TST Headscratchers » January 5, 2017 9:41 am

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I certainly hope so! There are too many faked or possibly faked deaths already. It seems to be a thing of the show that many deaths are questionable. Even if people stay dead the circumstances of their demise are altered - as in CAM's case.

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