To me, it's just called banter. If you saw me and my closest friend hanging out, at a glance, you'd probably think we hated one another and were constantly annoyed by the other's company. John and Sherlock have A LOT of on screen banter - the opening scenes of Hound are a great example.

But she had already hurt Sherlock in the worst possible way and threatened him twice after that. If that is not a threat, what is? 

I think the Boss was talking about the scenes in the earlier episodes, not about the 221B scene in HLV. 

I do not think this was a matter between John and Mary since she shot Sherlock and he felt that she might be a threat to John as well (That wife! John Watson is definitely in danger). Imagine John had said he would leave her because she lied to him and nearly killed Sherlock which he maybe would have done if Sherlock had not intervened. What do you think she would have done? Happily walked away and left him to care for Sherlock? 
 

Indeed. And I felt I had to defend Sherlock because he keeps getting blamed for things that are not his fault, too. 

As I mentioned, considering Sherlock's state (and problems with social etiquette in general) it is understandable that he would say such a thing. That doesn't make it right.

And I think it's insane to say that being hurt by someone saying it's your fault that the woman you loved lied to you is being "primadonna". 

You should also know that people under great distress, who are going through a huge crisis in their life, will also act in way they wouldn't normally. Why do you keep excusing Sherlock, but won't give John the same? They are both in huge distress in that moment - Sherlock physically and John mentally. But you only excuse Sherlock.

I think I give up, there is no way I can discuss on this level.

SusiGo wrote:

Well, I think there is quite some speculation going on. We do not know anything about his past with Harry so we cannot know if he is feeling any guilt for her behaviour and alcoholism or not. Same goes for the drinking you mentioned. I suppose the author alludes to the DVD scene in MHR but, honestly, you do not have to be an alcoholic to have a drink when watching a video of your late best friend. 

I think the problem is not so much that John is a victim but that both he and Sherlock suffer from not talking to each other and being in the dark about so many things.
You could turn this around and say Sherlock returns injured after dismantling a criminal and network and is thrown to the floor by his best friend after we have seen what his back looks like. He is shot by the wife of said best friend when trying to help her. He tries to persuade John to remain with the woman who nearly killed because he a) wants to placate her and save John from further danger or b) because he thinks John will be happy with her and the child after all. He then is sent to his certain death after having saved said best friend and his wife and their unborn child from Magnussen. 

And as for the thing about sitting in the pool changing room - John willingly joins Sherlock in his cases, he thrives on danger, and as a soldier he should know that danger is imminent when working together with Sherlock. 

Sorry, but these arguments do not work for me. Either both are victims or none of them is. But I refuse to see poor John as being the sole victim. 

 

I agree completely, SusiGo!
This is something I see quite often in the fandom-- there's this need to pit John and Sherlock against each other: and usually the pattern is John= Victim/ Sherlock=Victimizer. 

I like to call it Team John vs Team Sherlock syndrome. 

The above post ( I saw it this morning) struck me as interpreting an awful lot through the headcanon of the orginal poster. The show gives us no idea what Harry was like; how do we know that John didn't distance himself from her because she's Lesbian, and her drinking comes from that? 

We assume not, because WE LIKE JOHN. We assume the best of his motives, we look for the best possible (and tragic and romantic) interpretations of his character, because we love him-- so, we see cuddly, always patient, always reasonable, normal; where what the show gives us is..well, quite a bit different. 

By the same token, until s3-- the trend has mostly been to see the absolute worst in Sherlock. That seems to be sloooooooooowly changing. 

I'd love it if we could see that both Sherlock and John have issues, they have hurt each other, and no-one is the "winner" here, when it comes to who's been hurt the most, or who has hurt the other one the most....

It ain't a contest, folks! ;-) 

 

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (May 27, 2015 1:10 am)

SolarSystem wrote:

Sherlock Holmes wrote:

Sorry, in which way did Sherlock behave badly in the HLV 221B scene??

I don't think either of them (either John or Sherlock) behaved badly. I think they behaved according to the emotional and physical states they were both in, and that the scene was very in character for both of them.

I totally agree with you.
And I also agree with what Susi said a few posts ago: Sherlock doesn't say the things he's saying because he doesn't care for John or John's feelings, but precisely because he cares for John very much. He is saying all these things because it's a strategy to lull Mary into believing that he's no danger to her. And that he has no intention of trying to split John and Mary up. Sherlock wants Mary to feel safe and secure, and if that means that he has to convince John in an aggressive manner to trust her again, then that's what Sherlock is willing to do. Sherlock's approach might seem ruthless towards John, but Sherlock is trying to get the best result for John.
 

I don't believe that Sherlock really trusts, believes or forgives Mary...he just understands how dangerous she is and that he has to do this to placate her for the time being until he can figure out some other plan to get rid of her once and for all out of their lives.

I can see why some might feel that the 221B scene shows some problems in the Sherlock-John relationship, but I feel that both men should be cut some slack considering their circumstances. Of cause Sherlock putting the main responsibility for Mary’s actions on John seems unfair, but the man is hurting, can barely keep himself upright and has to also stabilize a possibly emotionally unstable –depending on your interpretation of the character- (ex-) assassin. Maybe he could have been more subtle about it, but we know that honest social interactions are not Sherlock’s strong point under the best of circumstances and he had very limited time to do what he felt he had to do. But I also feel that John is not being “primadonna” about anything. His whole life has just collapsed, his beloved wife and mother of his future child has turned out to be something very different than she seemed to be and now the one other person that he could have hoped to lean on is blaming him for it. He might not be the best doctor in the world for not noticing Sherlock’s deteriorating condition, but given what he is going through himself, I think he can be forgiven for being less observant than usual.