BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Johnlock: The Official Debate

nakahara · November 5, 2014 9:24 am

mrshouse wrote:
And another not so happy for my best friend face, embraced by Sherlocks hands holding the engagement ring in the box, I ask you!

This photo is very telling of how "happy" John feels over his friend´s engagement.

SolarSystem · November 5, 2014 9:29 am

I don't know what you're all talking about. Can't you see what's going on...??? What you interpret as John's genuine smile is of course just a very good facade. His real genuine smile is what we get to see when he learns of Sherlock and Janine. Morons.

mrshouse · November 5, 2014 9:33 am

Aaaaand I seriously wonder if those shots and close-ups are supposed to take the jealousy out of the scene, what were the first attempts like???

SusiGo · November 5, 2014 9:35 am

Yes, would love to see that one. I suppose he threw the coffee tin against the wall and dragged Janine by the hair from the bathroom.

nakahara · November 5, 2014 9:37 am

SusiGo wrote:
Yes, would love to see that one. I suppose he threw the coffee tin against the wall and dragged Janine by the hair from the bathroom.

I would so much love to see that too!!

Last edited by nakahara (November 5, 2014 9:38 am)

mrshouse · November 5, 2014 9:40 am

And another thought came across my mind: isn#t it telling that the topic of jealousy cam up in the comments at all? Why is that? If the Mofftiss didn't want to show it in the first place? Or subcutane or whatever?

SusiGo · November 5, 2014 9:45 am

Interesting indeed. Maybe they went to tumblr.

And may I mention that John suspects Sherlock twice to be interested in a woman and both times we get these hints/looks/discussions? Just saying.

SusiGo · November 5, 2014 9:55 am

Off-piste a bit. Back now. A little historical overview on the history of Johnlock:

http://welovethebeekeeper.tumblr.com/post/101663992618/we-didnt-start-the-fire-or-we-didnt-invent-johnlock

SolarSystem · November 5, 2014 10:14 am

Let me just get back to the jealousy for a second. I would assume that they mentioned it because it probably was an important aspect when they shot the scene. Especially when the first take did show something they really didn't want to be shown. Maybe they even had discussions about it, maybe Martin had problems with delivering what they wanted to see? Who knows. And maybe they really did come across stuff on tumblr that talked about jealousy.

SusiGo · November 5, 2014 10:18 am

Yes. It is very interesting that it should enter their heads at all if no one even remotely thinks John could be in love with Sherlock. Because if this is just John not trusting his eyes but being so very happy for his friend, he way overdid it. Sorry, Martin.

SolarSystem · November 5, 2014 10:30 am

It seems to me that they wanted to have some sort of comic element in the scene. Sherlock talking about the case and John talking about dinner and stuff... that is funny in a way. But still, I don't see honest happiness there, if there is happiness at all it feels more as if John forces himself to be happy for Sherlock (because that's what people do).

mrshouse · November 5, 2014 10:41 am

Yes, maybe. But it somehow also seems to contradict to the John just craving adrenaline and excitement from this friendship, doesn't it? If so, there would be nothing but to discuss the case at hand. And watch the setting carefully. They are seated at completely different corners of the room, as far apart from each other as never in visual terms, just because Liberty mentioned they might never have felt seperated. I think they did very much.
And a last thought: Sherlock sort of forced himself to be happy for John in TSOT, so this is some sort of mirror.

nakahara · November 5, 2014 11:06 am

Also, Janine´s appearance (immediately after John realises his chair is missing!) seems to indicate that John was replaced.
John´s opinions on Janine-Sherlock relationship notwithstanding - the realisation of his "displacement" from Baker Street would not bring happy-cuddly feelings to him, I´m sure.

SusiGo · November 5, 2014 11:09 am

Yes, and it is also driven home with the changes she made to the flat and calling Mycroft "Myc". He painfully realises that this is truly not his (sceond) home anymore.

Zatoichi · November 5, 2014 12:15 pm

nakahara wrote:
mrshouse wrote:
And another not so happy for my best friend face, embraced by Sherlocks hands holding the engagement ring in the box, I ask you!

This photo is very telling of how "happy" John feels over his friend´s engagement.

That´s his "What the actual f... is going on here??"-face.. Bless him..

mrshouse wrote:

And here he can´t believe his eyes.. It´s not a fake smile, it´s an incredulous smile. Ehm, Sherlock?? Girlfriend?? How.. Why? And.. how?? What happened to "not really my area"??

So that´s what I hear when I see his faces, just that I don´t call it "A Study in Subtext".. (implying everyone who gets it different gets it wrong)..

Last edited by Zatoichi (November 5, 2014 12:41 pm)

mrshouse · November 5, 2014 12:58 pm

@zatoichi, I didn't want to knock you over the head, if you feel like that I apologize sincecerely.
I can actually agree that John looks incredulous here. The aim of the pictures I showed here was to show that I do not see happiness and overjoy for his best friend falling in love, as the discussion went over the last pages. Pictured by the facettes of Martin Freeman's wonderful smile. Did I ever mention that I love his smile?

Zatoichi · November 5, 2014 2:52 pm

No no mrshouse, my comment wasn´t directed at you.. I´m probably a bit over-sensitive because I´ve seen so many stills like those with captions that try to turn the non-Johnlock-interpretation into ridicule. But I know you didn´t intend to do that.. Another case of someone nice from the forum suffering from the bad vibes created somewhere else, I´m sorry!

Liberty · November 5, 2014 6:47 pm

I think he's shocked at the engagement, not because he's jealous, but because Sherlock has made it clear that it's a ruse ("Did you just get engaged to break into an office?"). He stops being happy for his friend at that point (and no doubt feels sorry for Janine). I get the impression he disapproves (as he should do).

But if you saw sexual jealousy in the earlier scene, you might expect him to be ... relieved? To find out the relationship with Janine was fake? Rather than disapproving. I don't know.

Anyway, I'll see if I there's anything of interesting in the commentary for that bit. I think it was more about Sherlock than John, though.

I don't know what was in the first shoot of the earlier scene (they don't say), but I suppose that if he didn't smile and just showed astonishment, it might have looked more like jealousy? There's no mention of tumblr - just the mention of twitter (I got the impression they were watching twitter while the show was being broadcast? And that some people weren't pleased about Janine. I wasn't watching the show in those days, but maybe you will remember).

Mrshouse, I don't think the idea was that John thought Sherlock was in love, but just that he was pleased he'd got his first girlfriend, the really hot girl at the wedding!

Liberty · November 6, 2014 7:01 am

I listened to the commentary again, and unfortunately there's nothing revealing about John's feelings in the proposal scene. I'm amused by the way Mark and Steven finish each other's sentences (if I'm hearing it right!).

M: And here is Sherlock's terrible piece of
S: of evil
M: and human error
S: human error
M: So at this point anybody who thought he'd gone a bit soft
S: is about to learn that he's ... all he's learned about human behaviour is how to manipulate it. I can really simulate all those emotions that you can do!

And there's some more about them using the proposal in a more dynamic way (to get into the office) and about how good Benedict is (Sherlock doesn't realise how how vile he's being, so you don't hate him). I think they mentioned somewhere else that it's set up to look as if Sherlock is softening in TSOT, but he bounces back in HLV. I also posted more in the Janine thread about Sherlock's betrayal of her - it's something that's mentioned a lot. It's talked about as a Really Bad Thing, in the book and here (hence Steven not allowing Sherlock and Janine to have the conversation about the beehives). So, I think that here, John is showing what they see as a normal reaction to something awful that Sherlock is doing.

Last edited by Liberty (November 6, 2014 7:13 am)

besleybean · November 6, 2014 7:04 am

I still think they over play it...I mean the team's outrage,
I'm watching HLV commentary tonight.. I hope they are as outraged about the murder.
.