BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Elementary defenders need to drop the holier than thou

BBally · October 9, 2014 5:09 am

Mary Me wrote:
Some people just do mistake shit for quality. You could actually feel sorry for them.

I don't care how many times Elementary extremists (refuse to use the term fans since that implies the smart openminded members of said fandom) dissed Sherlock, it's never a good thing to diss their show back because it comes across as kind of hypocritical.

besleybean · October 9, 2014 6:37 am

And also a bit pathetic.

Davina · October 9, 2014 2:26 pm

Agreed! Life is too short to spend valuable time ranting against a show you don't like and don't watch as a result. Each to their own.

tonnaree · October 9, 2014 3:20 pm

Davina wrote:
Agreed! Life is too short to spend valuable time ranting against a show you don't like and don't watch as a result. Each to their own.

There are other shows besides Sherlock????

ancientsgate · October 10, 2014 3:56 am

I watch Elementary, I enjoy it, but I don't compare it to the BBC Sherlock or any other show. Jonny Lee Miller is a really good actor, and he makes me believe his Sherlock, but.... again, his Sherlock is not our Sherlock. The Elementary Sherlock and his sidekick Joan inhabit their own universe, and it doesn't overlap BBC's Sherlock in any way, far as I can see, except that the Elementary Sherlock shares the Sherlock Holmes name, he's a detective who helps the police, he has a brother named Mycroft (also a very different character from the BBC Mycroft), and he's kinda quirky.

I guess I don't understand why anyone would bother trying to compare the two shows. They are unlike in way more ways than they're alike.

nakahara · October 10, 2014 7:20 am

I find it sad that the US filmmakers felt the need to kidnap Sherlock from London and to transfer him into New Your - when they already had they own genius detective, Ellery Queen, who was a New-Yorker from the very start, who solved hundreds of outrageous cases in that town and who never had a show of his own aside from a few black-and-white movies and one one humble TV series in the 70-ties, which is a long time ago.
It would be a blast to see some of those classical mysteries featuring Ellery Queen on screen, in a modern setting.
What a pity the filmmakers didn´t take this chance.

SolarSystem · October 10, 2014 9:16 am

I have been watching a couple of episodes of "Elementary" lately and true, it has nothing to do at all with our Sherlock. I guess it's pretty useless to compare the two shows, at the same time I'd never spend any energy on ranting about a show I don't like. I just would stop watching it and watch other shows I like better instead.

It's kind of sad that producers and writers seem to be unable to come up with something really new. Two days ago I watched the first two episodes of a show called "Perception" and oh my, after five minutes I had the feeling that I had seen it all before, in various other show. It seems to be a mixture of "Numbers", "Criminal Minds", "The Closer" and yes, "Sherlock". Do people really want to see stuff like this that is not one bit genuine...? I only tuned in because of Eric McCormack, who I really liked in "Will & Grace" years ago. And he's not bad, but really, everything feels like been there, done that.

Last edited by SolarSystem (October 10, 2014 9:17 am)

besleybean · October 10, 2014 9:28 am

I do like Elementay and think Jonny and ...hmm.the lady(sorry, I'm crap on actors!) are good.
But it's just not Sherlock ....and we know the back story.

Davina · October 10, 2014 12:01 pm

Lucy Lui. There are good, original shows out there, you just have to rummage around a little and think out of the box sometimes.

ancientsgate · October 10, 2014 2:10 pm

nakahara wrote:
I find it sad that the US filmmakers felt the need to kidnap Sherlock from London and to transfer him into New York - when they already had they own genius detective, Ellery Queen, who was a New-Yorker from the very start,........

CBS jumped on the current Sherlock Holmes interest, found a good Brit actor (JLM) to play the role-- not only that, but one who has a BC-connection. And then, in an effort to make Elementary unique (as well as uniquely American) they stuck the character in NY.

Americans don't study the works of Sir ACD in school (I myself never read any original canon until recently, and even now the ony one I've ever read is ASiS), so unless someone has a British Lit degree or something, most Americans wouldn't know or care if showrunners stuck Sherlock in Timbuktu and made his colleague and partner a dromedary camel. Seriously.

I don't think anyone thought they were kidnapping anyone, or anyone's idea. All American TV is business-run; all the networks care about is ratings and advertising $$$, and everything else be damned. Meanwhile, Elementary is a bone fide hit, about to start season 3 later this month, so... apparently enough Americans think the universe that CBS created is interesting enough and believable enough that they want to sit down to watch every week.

ancientsgate · October 10, 2014 2:17 pm

Davina wrote:
Lucy Lui. There are good, original shows out there, you just have to rummage around a little and think out of the box sometimes.

And always be willing to use the remote to change the channel, or to elliminate planned programming from your DVR. Just recently I deleted a TV series I had programmed in to record every week. I watched the first one, and meh. I watched the 2nd and lasted about 10 minutes, so I went into the DVR and deleted it. Gone. Honestly, there is so much programming on TV now in the new fall season, there's no reason to watch the stuff we don't like for any reason, ever.

But I'll be watching S3 of Elementary. As American TV goes, it's actually pretty intelligent. I don't enjoy the lack of chemistry between Miller and Liu, and just the idea that TPTB at CBS mmight ship the two makes me bored and furious by turns, but for now, I just deal with that and enjoy Miller's Sherlock and the stuff they have him get up to. It also has the classiest-looking opening bit (music and video of a perpetual motion machine with a rolling crystal ball) of any show I know of. heh

silverblaze · October 10, 2014 3:34 pm

I must say I enjoy disagreeing about shows and having discussions about what we like and don't like but... only the way it generally goes on this forum: polite and with a laugh and a grain of salt. The hating on a show you don't like I really don't get, just like I really didn't get the people who signed up here just after s3 so that they could complain about it and make everyone miserable. Meh, if you don't like it, don't watch it and don't complain about it. And producers don't owe the fans anything, despite what some might believe.

Elementary, it's grown on me a bit. I first watched it because House MD ended and I needed something to fill the hole. I really hoped it'd be something similar but I was really disappointed. Miller's Holmes, beautiful as he might be, wasn't nearly as charismatic as Laurie's House. Also, the writing on House was a lot better, especially in the early seasons. I felt that when House was mean, you'd kinda forgive him because he was also so funny but with Miller's Holmes it was often just grating. But as a procedural it's not terrible, though there are other procedural that I prefer, like NCIS.

I think producers copy and repeat things because they want to play safe. They probably take quite some risks when launching a new series, so they probably like to embed them in as many known elements as possible.

besleybean · October 10, 2014 10:01 pm

I really can't see it as any more than a cheap money making exercise...
But they did good and it works for them.

Last edited by besleybean (October 10, 2014 10:01 pm)

nakahara · October 10, 2014 10:19 pm

ancientsgate wrote:
nakahara wrote:
I find it sad that the US filmmakers felt the need to kidnap Sherlock from London and to transfer him into New York - when they already had they own genius detective, Ellery Queen, who was a New-Yorker from the very start,........
CBS jumped on the current Sherlock Holmes interest, found a good Brit actor (JLM) to play the role-- not only that, but one who has a BC-connection. And then, in an effort to make Elementary unique (as well as uniquely American) they stuck the character in NY.

That´s exactly what I was bemoaning in my previous post. That the makers of Elementary, in their effort to cash in on Sherlock´s success, forcibly took Sherlock Holmes, a figure integraly associated with London and England and stuck him into New York. That all despite - as you nicely put it - them not caring at all if Sherlock is a black man from Timbuktu and his partner a dromedary. Why bother with famous literary figure, if you don´t care about its stories and its unique character then? Why "MacDonaldise" the traditions of another nations that way? Such figure will never look uniquely American, it always remains just the distortion of its original image...

And at the first place, why bother to do it if you already have at least two very famous literary figures of genius detectives - Ellery Queen and Nero Wolfe - of your own, and they already are uniquely American, they stories are already placed in New York and take place at many iconic landmarks there. And hundreds of very good mysteries are written about them (at least 70 for Nero Wolfe and probably much more about Ellery) - many of them procedurals like Elementary - so that the authors could chose from the very best of them and not ape the work of somebody else?

It´s exactly that cashing on the successes of others, without the shred of originality, that bothers me. You could do so much better.

nakahara wrote:
Americans don't study the works of Sir ACD in school (I myself never read any original canon until recently, and even now the ony one I've ever read is ASiS), so unless someone has a British Lit degree or something, most Americans wouldn't know or care if showrunners stuck Sherlock in Timbuktu and made his colleague and partner a dromedary camel. Seriously.

But I believe that you can easily obtain ACD works in the library and that many American enthusiasts who like classical detective stories know Sherlock Holmes well. It´s kinda hard not to - he was practicaly the cornerstone of the genre.

nakahara wrote:
I don't think anyone thought they were kidnapping anyone, or anyone's idea. All American TV is business-run; all the networks care about is ratings and advertising $$$, and everything else be damned. Meanwhile, Elementary is a bone fide hit, about to start season 3 later this month, so... apparently enough Americans think the universe that CBS created is interesting enough and believable enough that they want to sit down to watch every week.

I enjoy Elementary for what it is - a good procedural with a likable protagonists (I like both Miller and Liu in the roles and even think they do have some chemistry together). But as an adaptation of Sherlock Holmes stories it´s forgetable. (Althrough they sometimes surprise me by using a quotation or even the plot elements from the Canon.) Still, it´s good they got season 3. Sherlock hiatus is long and it helps to watch something similar from time to time.

ancientsgate · October 11, 2014 12:53 am

nakahara wrote:
.....Why bother with famous literary figure, if you don´t care about its stories and its unique character then? Why "MacDonaldise" the traditions of another nations that way? Such figure will never look uniquely American, it always remains just the distortion of its original image...

I think because Sherlock Holmes is "in" right now, and these other guys you mentioned, Ellery Queen and Nero Wolfe, no one under 50 or 60 years old has ever heard of them, much less interested in. American prime-time TV ratings are driven to the male 18-35 year old market, regardless of genre. It wouldn't do to put up a new, expensive, prime time drama aimed at male young people featuring fictional characters they've never heard of; there would be no automatic audience for Queen or Wolfe.

It´s exactly that cashing on the successes of others, without the shred of originality, that bothers me. You could do so much better.

Funny you should say that, since that's exactly what a lot of people said and are saying about the BBC Sherlock-- why would they put him in the 21 century, using cell phones, computers, modern microscopes and medical techniques? Weren't those horses and buggies and top hats and canes good enough to tell Sherlock stories after all? I think it's called creativity.... and creativity takes off on all kinds of tangents, all the time. Such is its nature, after all, no matter what kind of art we're discussing. This is the same world, after all, that produced Pablo Picasso and Michaelangelo and Thomas Kincaide, you know? All kinds of tangents, none more worthy or unworthy than any other. It's what makes the world go 'round.

But I believe that you can easily obtain ACD works in the library and that many American enthusiasts who like classical detective stories know Sherlock Holmes well. It´s kinda hard not to - he was practicaly the cornerstone of the genre.

Yes, of course we have easy access to the works of ACD if we want to read them. But we are unfamiliar with them, and in a world full of things to read, we don't go there much. We all read loads of Brit authors back in high school, but never ACD. As I said, we aren't familiar with his Sherlock for that reason. Of course, some are, but not the general public. If we have any familiarity with SH at all, it's thru the more recent movies.

besleybean · December 28, 2014 8:28 am

I have to say I have never really been aware of the war.
I was initially aware of the BBC Sherlock team's negative attitude to Elementary, later temepered by Benedict, who defended his pal Jonny.
Then for me personally, it was just my own family being so pro Elementary and my needing to educate them about Sherlock!

Vhanja · December 28, 2014 11:34 am

I have to admit I was quite shocked when I learned that Elementary was Sherlock set in NY. Sherlock in NY, female Watson, knowing how most US series goes... .to me, it's the least interesting show I can imagine, and I have no interest in watching it.

I don't have an interest in the fandom war either. I was there when Harry/Hermione blew up, and was quite shocked over how serious this was for people, and how strong the feelings were.

Harriet · December 28, 2014 3:58 pm

I think Elementary is ok (watched 2-3 episodes), probably even better than average US tv, but just not my cuppa.
Yea, some things might be bothersome, but I don't care enough.

ancientsgate · December 28, 2014 8:48 pm

Vhanja wrote:
I have to admit I was quite shocked when I learned that Elementary was Sherlock set in NY. Sherlock in NY, female Watson, knowing how most US series goes... .to me, it's the least interesting show I can imagine, and I have no interest in watching it.

If you haven't watched it, I'm curious about what you're doing here. How can you know it's uninteresting? Just wondering.

Jonny Lee Miller is terrific. His Sherlock is a Brit, he deduces things, and he solves crimes that everyone else is scratching their collective heads about. And he has a sidekick with the last name of Watson. And there the similarities end with the BBC Sherlock. That's okay-- hey, it's a big ol' entertainment world out here, and there's loads and loads of room for both takes on the Sherlock idea.

ancientsgate · December 28, 2014 8:57 pm

Harriet wrote:
I think Elementary is ok (watched 2-3 episodes), probably even better than average US tv, but just not my cuppa. Yea, some things might be bothersome, but I don't care enough.

You didn't watch it long enough, IMO. It's grown and developed over time. JLM and LL have done really well knowing and showing their characters, the writing is top notch, and everything has seamed together really well over the seasons. This is S3 already, so we must be about 40 episodes in by now! (An unbelievable number of eps, compared to what we get from the BBC). I fought to not like it at first, out of some kind of misguided loyalty to the BBC Sherlock I guess, but now I enjoy watching Elementary. It is what it is, and as far as TV entertainment goes, it's heads above about 90% of whatever else is on American TV. I've grown to really really like JLM, and this season they've given LL's Joan a lot more backbone and a bigger mouth with which to stand up to Sherlock, and it's all good.