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January 20, 2014 7:48 pm  #41


Re: Least favourable fan review of S3 I've read so far...

sj4iy wrote:

The answer was basically: here's a plausible explanation, you can choose to accept it or not.

Not sure which of the mash-up of explanations they offerred you thought was plausible, but it was very clearly stated by John: "You're not going to tell me how you did it..."  They didn't.

 

January 20, 2014 7:56 pm  #42


Re: Least favourable fan review of S3 I've read so far...

silverblaze wrote:

It's easy to recognise the weirdos. They blame Moffat for things that Gatiss wrote.
 

Gatiss and Moffat split credit, but Gatiss didn't sit down in a room all by himself and come up with the Fall scenarios.  Or anything else.  Every time they speak of it, they say "we" when discussing plot decisions.  But it was Moffatt who gave the interviews about how the fans all "missed a clue" on the roof and how he had it all worked out before they started and how they already filmed part of the explanation.  The Fall was Moffat's baby. 

I think it's quite rude to refer to posters and people whose ideas differ from yours as "weirdos."  But then, that's what they wanted in The Empty Hearse, to characterize people as losers and misfits and madmen who saw through the BS.   They wanted excactly this: that if we objected to the no-explanation explanation, other fans would attack us. 
 

Last edited by MysteriaSleuthbedder (January 20, 2014 8:16 pm)

 

January 20, 2014 8:11 pm  #43


Re: Least favourable fan review of S3 I've read so far...

I think there is NO completely plausible explanation: they got themselves in an impossible situation, because they wanted to create a fantastic emotional moment. And they managed to do it. For me TRF has been and still is, probably the most intense piece of television I have ever seen. Had they gone for something more probable, they could have found their way out easier, but the emotional impact would have suffered, inevitabily. I am not a particular fan of TEH, but I can understand the reasons they did what they did. It has nothing to do with bashing or ridicule the fandom, IMO. More a message: it doesn't matter HOW, it matters WHY. Aren't they right? After all, the discussions (very heated discussions!) about the 3rd season are almost all about characters, their motivations, ethics, psychology etc. and not about the crimes and mysteries Sherlock solved.

 

January 20, 2014 8:13 pm  #44


Re: Least favourable fan review of S3 I've read so far...

anjaH_alias wrote:

The missing clue is that the whole story started with a plan of Sherlock and Mycroft (becoming famous, eliciting Moriarty out of his spider web). Not the other way around as TRF might look like at first. And this is explained in the thrid solution of TEH as well.

That's not what he said.  He said we missed a clue on the roof because Sherlock did something "out of character."  Besides, the fact that Sherlock and Mycroft had been putting the plan into action back in Baskerville and purposely making Sherlock famous, wasn't missed at all, for instance, it was explained in a series of posts that start here: TRF 1 back in March.  Excerpts:

Mycroft knows what he is about to release into the world: Sherlock Holmes' destruction.  He has purposefully sent the evil [Moriarty] that would obliterate  Sherlock, the brother he has protected for most of his life, in order to stop more deaths  of innocents. Mycroft must trust Sherlock to stay one step ahead in understanding, while appearing three steps behind to Moriarty.  Mycroft has to be ready to act instantly at Sherlock's call, without knowing what he'll be called on to do and not act until Sherlock tells him.  Moriarty cannot know that the Holmes boys work together. ...


... Moriarty must believe he is making all the moves and Sherlock must manipulate things to his advantage as much and as subtly as possible.  So Sherlock, who always shunned personal publicity, turns himself into a tabloid media star. He accepts accolades and gifts, submits himself  to publicity photos and video cameras.

 

January 20, 2014 8:29 pm  #45


Re: Least favourable fan review of S3 I've read so far...

MysteriaSleuthbedder wrote:

sj4iy wrote:

The answer was basically: here's a plausible explanation, you can choose to accept it or not.

Not sure which of the mash-up of explanations they offerred you thought was plausible, but it was very clearly stated by John: "You're not going to tell me how you did it..."  They didn't.

Well, let's see...

The third one, if you're going to be pedantic about it

Considering that I came up with that exact explanation long before the episode ever aired (and I did, look in the forum and it proves it), I would say that yes, I find it perfectly plausible.  If it weren't perfectly plausible, I couldn't have come up with the obvious explanation.

Personaly, I don't care HOW many explanations they come up with  I'm fine with what we were told.  I'm not going to spend any more time on it than I already have, as it is over and done with.  Feel free to come up with a more plausible explanation if you wish, but I'm done.

Last edited by sj4iy (January 20, 2014 8:30 pm)


__________________________________________________________________Bigby: Will you shut up?
Colin: Well, maybe if my throat wasn’t so parched, I wouldn’t have to keep talking.
Bigby: Wait, that doesn’t make se-
Coline: Just give me a drink, please.
 

January 20, 2014 8:31 pm  #46


Re: Least favourable fan review of S3 I've read so far...

miriel68 wrote:

I think there is NO completely plausible explanation: they got themselves in an impossible situation, because they wanted to create a fantastic emotional moment. And they managed to do it.

I agree, the way it was filmed and after fans spent two years dissecting the possible explanations, they had no solution.  And that would have been fine, if they had simply said so.  But it is not true that it started out that way.  They have said that. Moffat said:

"There is a clue everybody's missed," he says tantalizingly. "So many people theorising about Sherlock's death online – and they missed it! We've worked out how Sherlock survives, and actually shot part of what really happened. It all makes sense."

Recently, they said that the Bart's under construction motif was going to be used, that Sherlock was going to have jumped onto a construction platform, like a window-washer's rig, attached to the side of the building, but hidden by the ambulance station, and then they'd throw a different body out there. 

But that didn't work when Bart's took down their own scaffolding.  Besides, it was shown that the hand John picked up belonged to Benedict Cumberbatch.  So, you can't use a different body.

I am not a particular fan of TEH, but I can understand the reasons they did what they did. It has nothing to do with bashing or ridicule the fandom, IMO.

Then why did they bash and ridicule the fandom?   It's not like it's an accident Lestrade says the explanations are stupid.  Or those actors in Anderson's flat are dressed as they are.  Or that the lead Reichenbach theorist isn't presented as having a mental breakdown.  Moffat in particular made a big deal in interviews of how clever his explanation was going to be.  But he didn't count on the fact that he isn't the only clever obsessed fanboy out there.  A whole lot of smart people who like puzzles would be watching.  This isn't Dr Who where he can just pull an explanation out of thin air an attribute it to Time Lordism - Sherlock is supposed to be believable. 

He learned his lesson.  He gave us His Last Vow which is pretty tightly constructed.

It's fine if you want to go wth their new version of reality - (Oh, it doesn't matter...).  What's not fine is fan on fan bashing because some of us are crying foul and pointing out just how naked the emporer is.
 

Last edited by MysteriaSleuthbedder (January 20, 2014 8:41 pm)

 

January 20, 2014 8:38 pm  #47


Re: Least favourable fan review of S3 I've read so far...

sj4iy wrote:

Well, let's see...

The third one, if you're going to be pedantic about it

Considering that I came up with that exact explanation...

I see.  This is a victory claim.   The point is, we all came up with parts of all these explanations long before the show aired, and I suppose we can all claim victory.  The fact, however, is that they chose not to offer any explanation.  This is what they said. If recognizing a fact is ""pedantic" I guess I'll just have to live with being someone who recognizes a fact as a fact.

Feel free to come up with a more plausible explanation if you wish, but I'm done.

I already did.  And you have a lovely day.

Last edited by MysteriaSleuthbedder (January 20, 2014 8:40 pm)

 

January 20, 2014 8:59 pm  #48


Re: Least favourable fan review of S3 I've read so far...

The third one was the solution. The one that they plotted out when they plotted Reichenbach. That's it.

They never anticipated the length at which fans would go in explaining it. They didn't even read most of the theories, the missing clue thing was something he said at the beginning, after that they didn't read much else. 

Of course some people guessed it, it really wasn't that hard. 

 

January 20, 2014 9:01 pm  #49


Re: Least favourable fan review of S3 I've read so far...

MysteriaSleuthbedder wrote:

sj4iy wrote:

Well, let's see...

The third one, if you're going to be pedantic about it

Considering that I came up with that exact explanation...

I see.  This is a victory claim.   The point is, we all came up with parts of all these explanations long before the show aired, and I suppose we can all claim victory.  The fact, however, is that they chose not to offer any explanation.  This is what they said. If recognizing a fact is ""pedantic" I guess I'll just have to live with being someone who recognizes a fact as a fact.

Feel free to come up with a more plausible explanation if you wish, but I'm done.

I already did.  And you have a lovely day.

I don't need the 'victory claim', nor am I doing that.  I'm simply saying that I was sufficiently pleased with what we got and I'm moving on.  The only reason I brought up what I said was because I keep seeing people write "It makes no sense!" even though it does.  If you feel that you have a better explanation, feel free to believe that and move on.  But as far as I'm concerned, we're done with that part of it.  "The Empty Hearse" wasn't my favorite episode, but I enjoyed it nevertheless.  People are simply upset because they want a 'definitive answer'...which, really, doesn't happen that often in real life...why do we expect it of our entertainment?


__________________________________________________________________Bigby: Will you shut up?
Colin: Well, maybe if my throat wasn’t so parched, I wouldn’t have to keep talking.
Bigby: Wait, that doesn’t make se-
Coline: Just give me a drink, please.
 

January 20, 2014 9:03 pm  #50


Re: Least favourable fan review of S3 I've read so far...

I agree with you. And tbh I am a bit fed up with all the complaints from people who are not satisfied. As Mark said there are only so many ways how to survive a fall from that height. I never assumed it was magic or pure genius. Some things might have been explained a little better - the snipers, how John did not see the airbag when arriving by cab - but all in all can live quite well with this explanation. I do not think that in series 4 there will pop up some unexpected fourth explanation. 
And it was the fans decision to work out all those elaborate theories, things that would have needed 90 minutes alone to explain. It helped us to survive those two years. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

January 20, 2014 9:13 pm  #51


Re: Least favourable fan review of S3 I've read so far...

I can imagine though that they first wanted to use the truck but changed it because the fans said that this wouldn't be possible (otherwise I really don't see the point of it being there). But I am fed up, too.The third variant is believable enough for a TV show.

 

January 20, 2014 9:38 pm  #52


Re: Least favourable fan review of S3 I've read so far...

Swanpride wrote:

I can imagine though that they first wanted to use the truck but changed it because the fans said that this wouldn't be possible (otherwise I really don't see the point of it being there). But I am fed up, too.The third variant is believable enough for a TV show.

They said they used the truck as a red herring when filming. Someone from Setlock checked the truck and they had even gone so far as to equip it for a stunt fall.

Maybe we will get some more explanations tomorrow. As the fall is one of the DVD extras.


 

 

January 21, 2014 12:07 am  #53


Re: Least favourable fan review of S3 I've read so far...

silverblaze wrote:

The third one was the solution. The one that they plotted out when they plotted Reichenbach. That's it.

Not according to Gatiss.  He said the solution they plotted when it was written involved the "Bart's Hospital Refit" headline we all saw and a constrution platform, like a window washer's platform, attached to the building but hidden by the ambulance station.  Moffat actually said something similar during the hiatus.  They never had a "bouncy-house" plan.  That was something the fans came up with from setlock.  Everything they showed, was something that fans came up with.  Nothing they showed represented the actual explanation.  According to both what we saw and the writers in interviews.

Last edited by MysteriaSleuthbedder (January 21, 2014 12:26 am)

 

January 21, 2014 12:16 am  #54


Re: Least favourable fan review of S3 I've read so far...

sj4iy wrote:

"The Empty Hearse" wasn't my favorite episode, but I enjoyed it nevertheless.  People are simply upset because they want a 'definitive answer'...which, really, doesn't happen that often in real life...why do we expect it of our entertainment?

Why do we expect it?  Because of what Moffat said:

"So many people theorising about Sherlock's death online – and they missed it! We've worked out how Sherlock survives, and actually shot part of what really happened. It all makes sense."

And that was just one interview.  Please don't mind-read the fans who are upset and think you know what we are upset about.  You don't, apparently, and have no wish to admit that Mofftiss went to some trouble and expenseto insult the fanbase and cast us as misfits and morons, not to mention mental cases.   There was NEVER  going to be a "definitive answer."  Any Reichenbach theorist who studied the evidence disspassionately knew that.  NOTHING he could have written would have made sense in terms of what we saw.

But instead of acknowledging the intelligence and creativity of all the other Sherlock fangirls and boys out there, instead of saying, "Well, you guys stumped me," and doing the exact same show - he said this: "If anyone wants any further explanation they are just one of these idiots. - Be like John Watson and move along." 

Last edited by MysteriaSleuthbedder (January 21, 2014 12:17 am)

 

January 21, 2014 12:22 am  #55


Re: Least favourable fan review of S3 I've read so far...

SusiGo wrote:

I agree with you. And tbh I am a bit fed up with all the complaints from people who are not satisfied.. 

TBH, I'm sick of hearing from people who just want to argue, say they are "moving on" and then never do because someone else's opinion differs from theirs.  People who are offended could be talking to one another, instead, we are dealing with those who want to tell us there is  something wrong with us for feeling like we feel.  Guess we're just those losers, mifits and Goth girls shipping Morlock, or some ex-lab tech having a mental breakdown.  We must be.  Mofftiss said so.

 

January 21, 2014 12:24 am  #56


Re: Least favourable fan review of S3 I've read so far...

dartmoordoggers wrote:

They said they used the truck as a red herring when filming. Someone from Setlock checked the truck and they had even gone so far as to equip it for a stunt fall.

Maybe we will get some more explanations tomorrow. As the fall is one of the DVD extras.
 

We don't get the DVD in the US for another couple weeks, until the US TV showings are over.  I'd be interested to hear if anything more was explained.

Last edited by MysteriaSleuthbedder (January 21, 2014 12:25 am)

 

January 21, 2014 6:17 am  #57


Re: Least favourable fan review of S3 I've read so far...

SusiGo wrote:

And tbh I am a bit fed up with all the complaints from people who are not satisfied. As Mark said there are only so many ways how to survive a fall from that height. I never assumed it was magic or pure genius. Some things might have been explained a little better - the snipers, how John did not see the airbag when arriving by cab - but all in all can live quite well with this explanation. I do not think that in series 4 there will pop up some unexpected fourth explanation.

Well, I don't expect them to come up with another explanation in S4, either, simply because: if they had a waterproof explanation, they would have given us this explanation in TEH. That's the way I see it. They simply don't have one, and what they gave us in TEH doesn't really work for me. And IMO they never had one, no matter what they said in interviews over the last two years.
A lot of people now say that Gatiss and Moffat probably had to rethink their explanation because the fans dissected every thinkable scenario over the last two years and thereby obviously detected holes in Mofftiss' theory. Well, all I can say to this is (again): if Mofftiss really had had a waterproof explanation, there would have been no holes in it to detect, no matter how mercilessly the fans might have thought everything through.

That's the way I see it. And I don't complain. But I can understand that some fans might be... disappointed. The easiest thing for Gatiss and Moffat would have been to keep their mouths firmly shut after TRF. But they went and raised the expectations, IMO. And they promised an answer. And yes, we apparently got one - but it just doesn't work for me. But there's lots of other stuff in TEH that does work for me, so I'm past lamenting.


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?"

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January 21, 2014 8:35 am  #58


Re: Least favourable fan review of S3 I've read so far...

SolarSystem wrote:

 I can understand that some fans might be... disappointed. The easiest thing for Gatiss and Moffat would have been to keep their mouths firmly shut after TRF. But they went and raised the expectations, IMO. And they promised an answer. And yes, we apparently got one - but it just doesn't work for me. But there's lots of other stuff in TEH that does work for me, so I'm past lamenting.

 Yes, I do understand that the fans who want the show to completely make sense and honour the logic as if it were real characters in a real life, may be disappointed. And I agree that M & G were a tad arrogant claiming for two years that they have a convincing explanation (fuelling interest in the show, anyone?). They are bad, bad boys, but we knew it even before: what about swimpool cliffhanger from the first series? But still, it is not a real life: it is a TV show and suspence of the disbelief is a fundamental premise if we want to enjoy it.
 

 

January 21, 2014 9:05 am  #59


Re: Least favourable fan review of S3 I've read so far...

MysteriaSleuthbedder wrote:

Moffat said:

"There is a clue everybody's missed," he says tantalizingly. "So many people theorising about Sherlock's death online – and they missed it! We've worked out how Sherlock survives, and actually shot part of what really happened. It all makes sense."

Then why did they bash and ridicule the fandom?   It's not like it's an accident Lestrade says the explanations are stupid.  Or those actors in Anderson's flat are dressed as they are.  Or that the lead Reichenbach theorist isn't presented as having a mental breakdown.  Moffat in particular made a big deal in interviews of how clever his explanation was going to be.  But he didn't count on the fact that he isn't the only clever obsessed fanboy out there.  A whole lot of smart people who like puzzles would be watching.  This isn't Dr Who where he can just pull an explanation out of thin air an attribute it to Time Lordism - Sherlock is supposed to be believable. 

He learned his lesson.  He gave us His Last Vow which is pretty tightly constructed.

It's fine if you want to go wth their new version of reality - (Oh, it doesn't matter...).  What's not fine is fan on fan bashing because some of us are crying foul and pointing out just how naked the emporer is.
 

First of all: You quoted here the "missing clue" sentence - nothing with roof. Again: The missing clue was that nobody (or at least nobody of whom they have read) mentioned that TRF was a plan of Sherlock and Mycroft from the beginning on. Moffat said that sentence a few days after TRF was aired, so not many theories about that were out at that time, people were more or less obsessed with the fall itself.
And this was mentioned in TEH. It all makes sense imo. Also because most of the shown solution covers what I thought before. So, why should I complain?
I am really wondering about your emotional statements. How can one be so personally attached, so full of - yes, hatred with a TV show and their makers? I really don´t get that. I would understand a certain disappointment, and I have no problems in hearing different opinions. But that´s far too much imo, that´s a kind of personal involvement which sounds as if something bad has happened in real life to you. If you really feel bashed as a fan there is nobody forcing you to watch it again, or?
For me the third solution makes a lot of sense and the more I watch TEH the more I like it. Gatiss had a difficult job with the opening: He had to cope with all the expectations, theories and emotions of two years and he did it cleverly, in a subtle way, not just delivering facts but packing them in a surreal scene which leaves room for own interpretations. Witty, I really love that, absolutely not what one would expect. And certainly no reason for being offended.

Last edited by anjaH_alias (January 21, 2014 9:06 am)

 

January 21, 2014 9:14 am  #60


Re: Least favourable fan review of S3 I've read so far...

Well said, anja. I also have difficulties in understanding why people get so personally upset about this. I really did not envy Mark Gatiss for having to write that script (although it is a privilege and a wonderful thing to be involved in the series). But trying to fulfill these enormous expectations on all levels must be quite daunting. And let us be honest - is there any solution at all to satisfy everyone?

And I wish to stress that I do not feel bashed in any way. Moreoever, they did not make fun of any realistic and well-wrought theories but came up with two totally over the top theories that I have never seen anywhere on tumblr of in any fanfic.
 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

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