kazza474 wrote:

I don't agree it was Irene herself on the slab. Nor do I think that Molly would have had any part of anything Irene was planning.
Molly can bring people back & heal all wounds? I hope you're kidding.

kazza, are you so wrapped up in making sure your Sherlock stays a non-human machine that you can't see my little joke here... 

Guess I was. Sorry. Going to go get some crisps... 

My thoughts are that, whilst Sherlock studied Irene's body whilst she was alive sufficiently to be able to come up with her vital statistics later, it is possible that as he was thrown so much by her appearing naked that he did not actually study her in more detail than that. After all, at that stage he did not know that he was going to be required to identify her dead body at a later date, did he. It also makes for a light relief moment when he does go into the morgue to identify her with Molly's 'from...not her face?' question. It would be likely that the body would have been found with other I.D.

The other query would be why it was necessary for him, of all people, to identify her, unless of course Mycroft had been told that she had appeared naked in front of his little brother. Which is suppose is possible.

Sherlock Holmes wrote:

Well Mycroft didn't exactly seem surprised when Sherlock was able to recognise her from "not her face".

I like to think Mycroft knows everything (well, let's not deify him...let's say everything pertaining to Sherlock), which makes his [apparent] short-comings in Scandal all the more irritating to watch.

kazza474 wrote:

Aurora, you need to watch that scene again. I just did; I always believed this was an 'older' dead body/not fresh as it were.

Homework complete.  Firstly a couple of responses to your comments.

kazza474 wrote:

Mycroft's question about 'that's her isn't it" isn't so strange. You've just finished saying yourself how bodies can be switched, DNA records changed etc.
Mycroft trusts his brothers sight more than simply taking the written records as gospel.

Sorry, I've confused you on the comment I thought was strange. I was meaning: "The only one that fitted the description."  If Mycroft had any better evidence that this was Irene then this comment is irrelevant. Why didn’t he say, for instance, "She had Irene’s ID on her" , "She was found just around the corner from Irene’s flat"  or "DNA matches up with our records for Irene" . Why give the least useful data and withhold the more informative stuff? If he had told Sherlock earlier the DNA matched (on the phone when he told Sherlock they had a body for instance), then why bother now saying that she was the only one that fitted? If you are already 99.9% sure this is the body you're after, then who cares whether or not there are other bodies that look similar? Conclusion: The only evidence Sherlock has that this body is going to be Irene is that Mycroft hasn’t found any other candidates. It was a cold ID.

kazza474 wrote:

As for Irene fooling him, she did with the fake phone. Sherlock makes mistakes and Sherlock CAN be fooled and Irene has proven herself to be up to that task.

Irene was quick enough to realise that it wasn’t the right phone and self-controlled enough not to betray that she knew. Fooling Sherlock that she had fallen for it was simply good acting. Clever, yes, and Sherlock gave her due credit for it. However, it didn’t involve any planning or cunning or strategizing on her part. It was Sherlock who played the gambit and she who was not fooled. Different ballgame from her going out with the intention to trick him.


So, now on to what I picked up from analysing the Christmas Eve scene. (Very annoyed with this – had almost finished typing this post when I knocked the back button on the mouse and lost everything.  ) Again, I’ve taken most of the lines from Ariane DeVere’s transcript. Comments are just whatever stood out to me. Some things aren’t relevant to the discussion, I just thought they were interesting.

Opening shots show it is well after nightfall. Molly is the last to arrive. Clearly she has taken some time getting ready. Let's assume she finished work at 5pm. John’s indicates later that it takes 10 mins to travel from St Barts to "Baker Street"  at midnight (see below) - elsewhere I’ve seen it asserted that the taxi trip is closer to 30 mins, this seems reasonable for peak hour vs midnight. So, allowing 30 mins for doing herself up, her arrival can’t be before 6pm (likely to be much later as she probably went home to change). Let’s say it’s 6pm, though.

Sherlock is feeling narky and making nasty comments to everyone.

(The conversation between Molly and Lestrade seems to confirm that this is Christmas Eve.)

Sherlock gets the text from Irene: Mantlepiece.

Curious: he’s biting his lip after he picks up the present. Makes a small mouth/jaw movement. Says "Excuse me"  and walks out. His face after the second "excuse me"  looks very grim. It appears he’s realised something is wrong – and he’s unhappy about it.

Walks into his room. Unwraps phone. Repeats jaw movement. Examines phone closely.

Calls Mycroft.
SHERLOCK: I think you’re going to find Irene Adler tonight.
MYCROFT: We already know where she is. As you were kind enough to point out, it hardly mattered.
SHERLOCK: No, I mean you’re going to find her dead.
From Sherlock’s response it’s clear Mycroft is saying he knows where she lives and hangs out – he is not yet aware that she is dead. (And as she sent Sherlock a text about 1 minute ago, "she"  probably still isn’t.)

Sherlock shuts the door in John’s face. Clearly he is no longer in the mood to endure Christmas parties or company.

The "Morgue"
MYCROFT: The only one that fitted the description. Had her brought here – your home from home.
No indication of where she was brought from. Could equally be another morgue or direct from the crime scene.

SHERLOCK: You didn’t need to come in, Molly.
MOLLY: That’s okay. Everyone else was busy with ... Christmas.
Sherlock straightens – my impression is he’s taken aback.

Mycroft has changed from the clothes he was wearing at home. Molly has also changed and let down her hair. Her lipstick has been removed (still not working for her) but she still has the eye makeup on.

Molly pulls back sheet. No visible reaction from Sherlock.

Molly pulls the sheet the rest of the way down. Sherlock looks down the body and back up. Throws a quick glance to the left, says "That’s her"  and walks out.

Mycroft offers Sherlock the cigarette.
MYCROFT: Just the one.
SHERLOCK: Why?
MYCROFT: Merry Christmas.
Micro-smile from Sherlock.
MYCROFT: How did you know she was dead?
SHERLOCK: She had an item in her possession, one she said her life depended on. She chose to give it up.
While this bit is definitely downbeat, to me Sherlock doesn’t seem as dangerously grim as when he was at home.
MYCROFT: Where is this item now?
Sherlock avoids the question entirely.

SHERLOCK: Look at them. They all care so much. Do you ever wonder if there’s something wrong with us?
My interpretation of what Sherlock is saying: Did you give me the cigarette because you think I need sympathy? I don’t.
MYCROFT: All lives end. All hearts are broken. Caring is not an advantage, Sherlock.
My interpretation of what Mycroft is saying: (failing to pick up Sherlock’s subtext) I know you’re upset but you can’t indulge these feelings. It’s not useful.
SHERLOCK: This is low tar.
MYCROFT: Well, you barely knew her.
SHERLOCK: Huh!
Smile. Is he amused by the joke or amused to think Mycroft believes he might be affected?

Mycroft calls John.
JOHN: Looks like he’s clean. We’ve tried all the usual places. Are you sure tonight’s a danger night?
I find it cool and touching that John, Mycroft and Mrs Hudson have formed a team to protect Sherlock from himself. It’s saddening, though, that "danger nights"  happen often enough for them to have a well-oiled strategy to deal with them. 

MYCROFT: No, but then I never am. You have to stay with him, John.
Mycroft admits that he can’t read Sherlock’s emotions, or whether he is actually feeling any. Indication to us that Mycroft’s interpretations may be wrong.

Note that throughout this sequence that John, Mrs Hudson and Jeanette are all wearing the same clothes as at the party. John asking if Mycroft thinks this is a danger night indicates it’s still the same night (as opposed to being shortly before sunrise the next morning and everyone’s pulled an all-nighter). At one stage during this conversation we catch a glimpse of John’s watch: 12:30.

Sherlock returns.
JOHN: Oh, hi. You okay?
No visible reaction from Sherlock. Scans room.
SHERLOCK: Hope you didn’t mess up my sock index this time.
Sherlock realises both Mycroft and John think he is having an emotional reaction. I reckon he thinks: "Ok then, let’s see how long I can string them along. Should be interesting.  Might be useful."

Finally we get another glimpse of John’s watch: still 12:30. So, a bit of a continuity error but the watch has been set to half-past midnight and the battery removed, so we can conclude that this is supposed to be happening around about then. This would be consistent with John still having plans for the night (presumably to spend it at Jeanette’s).



So, what’s happening with the body during this time? Assuming the girl is still alive when Irene sends the text at no earlier than 6pm (if time of death was before then she couldn’t have sent the text and hence couldn’t be Irene), she has to be killed, her face suitably disfigured and her body dumped. Allow 15 mins for this. During this time Sherlock has called Mycroft and he, presumably, has delegated to a minion to contact all the morgues plus the police and ambulance service to be on the alert for a body of the right description. This will take time to filter down to the beat cops and ambulance drivers. Meanwhile, someone has to find the body. This could take any amount of time, say, to be ambitious, 30 mins. The finder calls the police. The uniformed officers arrive to check out the report, confirm that there really is a body (not a prank call) and call in the detectives, the forensic officers and the undertakers (now well after 7pm Christmas Eve). They arrive, confirm death, examine the scene and take all their crime scene photos before releasing the body to the undertakers. By this time the detective in charge should have heard that someone high up might be interested in this body and have contacted Mycroft. Mycroft would then direct for the body to be taken to Barts. Even if this hasn’t happened, though, the body would still arrive at whatever morgue (again being ambitious) after 8:30. Being Christmas Eve, hospital pathology departments would be working on a skeleton crew – their priority would be diagnosing infections to save the living, the dead won’t get any deader. Even if there is an eager beaver still working at a specialist pathology lab, things still work on a FIFO basis – a kidnapping might get priority but not a random mugging gone wrong. In any case the max 4 ½ hrs (and likely very much less than this) between the first opportunity for DNA sample to arrive at the lab for testing and Sherlock looking at the body is not long enough to get a DNA test result. By the time Sherlock arrives, the body is naked and under a sheet (rather than being in a body bag). So, she has been processed to some extent at Barts (by Molly?). It could also be, though, that the body was found naked and all Molly did was get the undertakers to take her out of the bag and put her on the slab.

So, I still can’t see any evidence that Sherlock did or could have received DNA results before he saw the body.

Last edited by Aurora (June 6, 2012 7:45 am)

So, what’s happening with the body during this time? Assuming the girl is still alive when Irene sends the text at no earlier than 6pm (if time of death was before then she couldn’t have sent the text and hence couldn’t be Irene), she has to be killed, her face suitably disfigured and her body dumped.

There's no suggestion that Irene had the girl killed. She needed a body, she sent out 'the word' to probably her past clients that she had 'indelicate knowledge' of & a suitable body was found. It could have come from anywhere, wherever she had 'past clients', even overseas if need be. Once they're dead, they're kept quite easily for days/weeks if need be.
She may have had someone killed, but really, that is not her style.

Davina wrote:

The other query would be why it was necessary for him, of all people, to identify her, unless of course Mycroft had been told that she had appeared naked in front of his little brother. Which is suppose is possible.

Hi Davina, I expect that it wasn't a formal ID - just for their own personal interest.

kazza474 wrote:

Now remember we are dealing with Mycroft, who is used to subterfuge & trickery from spies etc.
She had Irene’s ID on her - anyone could. I could have your ID on me, doesn't mean I am you. Proves nothing.
She was found just around the corner from Irene’s flat - anyone could be found dead there eg client. Proves nothing.
DNA matches up with our records for Irene - DNA records can be faked - proves nothing.

Mycroft relied on something he has more faith in- Sherlock's recall ability when looking at the actual material evidence, not facts & figures that can be botched. He trusts Sherlock over a computer and over the other people who gathered the evidence.
I believe that actually makes good sense when you have someone like Sherlock around.

I agree that all of these things can be coincidences or faked (and we know the DNA was). I understood, though, that the question we were discussing was whether or not Sherlock had any additional information to suggest that this body was going to be Irene.

So, let's say Mycroft did have some additional information but he was suspicious of it (or just wanted further evidence) so asks Sherlock to take a look. He trusts Sherlock's memory and analysis to give a more reliable identification.

So, what does Mycroft do?

Option 1: He shares this information with Sherlock (which must happen off screen on the way to the morgue) before they look at the body. Sherlock, then, has been prepared by receiving the phone and by Mycroft's additional data to expect that this could be Irene. If he is acting as an unbiased observer this shouldn't be a problem. You were arguing earlier, though, that he didn't need to look at the body carefully because he already knew it was her:

kazza474 wrote:

the idea was planted.

and

kazza474 wrote:

What purpose would there be to a close examination of the body? ... Dental & DNA records had already identified her, she had sent her phone which meant her life was in danger & it was obvious as to the cause of death & most probably the reason (blackmail turned bad). Her body had been processed in the morgue by Molly, so unless he was looking for something specific no study of the body in detail would have been warranted or fruitful.

So, he's been primed by the dodgy data from Mycroft, hence he doesn't see any need to look at the body particularly closely and simply rubber stamps the false ID? Mycroft doesn't get his independent confirmation of the identification - his higher level of trust in Sherlock's memory and abilities was misplaced. Laziness and failure to question planted evidence has led to a false conclusion... that's not my Sherlock. 

Option 2: In the interests of obtaining an independent opinion, Mycroft withholds the additional data from Sherlock. But then we're back with my argument... If Sherlock had no other information to go on, the question he would have been asking himself when looking at the body is: is this Irene or is it some random woman who is entirely unconnected with the situation? Ie. a woman who fits the general description but it's just a coincidence (she's neither Irene nor Fake Irene) and Irene's body is still out there waiting to be found. But in this situation he should be paying attention and carefully comparing what he sees with his memory. If he incorrectly identifies a random woman as Irene, DNA will soon prove him wrong and he'll look a fool. He could just as easily have said he wasn't sure and "no harm, no foul". Because of this I take his confident declaration that it was her to mean he was certain about what he was seeing. Either he's been completely taken in and believes it is Irene, or he knows this is a plant who is meant to be Irene and is choosing to play along.

kazza474 wrote:

So, what’s happening with the body during this time? Assuming the girl is still alive when Irene sends the text at no earlier than 6pm (if time of death was before then she couldn’t have sent the text and hence couldn’t be Irene), she has to be killed, her face suitably disfigured and her body dumped.

There's no suggestion that Irene had the girl killed. She needed a body, she sent out 'the word' to probably her past clients that she had 'indelicate knowledge' of & a suitable body was found. It could have come from anywhere, wherever she had 'past clients', even overseas if need be. Once they're dead, they're kept quite easily for days/weeks if need be.
She may have had someone killed, but really, that is not her style.

I would love to believe that she's not the kind to have someone killed. She's so charming and fun. As Moffatt says in the Scandal commentary, though, (again with thanks to Ariane DeVere):

Steven: "It was a tricky part to cast, Irene, because she’s such a terrible person. If you actually look at what she actually does in this show, she’s quite abominable."
Steven: "You have to be so caught up in the fun that Irene has that you sort of forget that she’s pretty terrible."

I agree bodies can be kept. I think, though, that it would be much harder to trick the doctor/pathologist who confirmed life was extinct at the crime scene that a body which had been kept on ice had been dead no more than 6hrs.

http://library.thinkquest.org/04oct/00206/text_ta_time_since_death.htm

Determination of time of death would rule out an older corpse as being a potential Irene - it wouldn't fit the description.

Last edited by Aurora (June 6, 2012 10:05 am)

Aurora wrote:

Hi Sentimental Pulse,

It's interesting how differently people perceive things. I thought he looked disturbed and shaken when leaving Battersea. Much more a negative emotion than a positive one. The great thing about this issue, though, is that I'm pretty sure that it wont be revisited. So everybody's interpretation is equally valid and we can all enjoy our own imaginings.  As Mrs Hudson says: How will we ever know what goes on in that funny old head? It does give great scope for those of us who enjoy a debate, though.

Hi Aurora! I must be honest enough to admit to the possibility that my observation skills may be a tad skewed by my desires When I arrive home I shall rush to the video and replay the scene and force myself to review it dispassionately I surely hope you are wrong about M&G not revisiting the Sherlock/Irene romantic conflict but I suspect you may well be right. This is why we watch