BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 / Eurus Holmes

**Posted by belis** November 20, 2017 7:15 pm

Kittyhawk wrote:
What's the procedure for having a person/child committed? There must be some safeguards to prevent people from getting rid of somebody... What bothers me is that Eurus is just "disappeared" after she burns down her first facility (IF Mycroft tells the truth here) - her parents think she's dead - Uncle Rudy and later Mycroft take over responsibility (neither would be next of kin, would they?). Sounds at the very minimum like abuse of the system to me... And Sherrinford is not a hospital, the Governor claims. So for me Eurus is unlawfully locked up, doesn't matter whether the Mental Health Act or criminal law is supposed to apply.

Mycroft is the government so the way I see it he would have little difficulties to circumvent the process. It would make sense for him to make Eurus disappear after a fire. It is easy to explain lack of the body in those circumstances and tell everyone that she was burnt to a crisp in her room.

The procedure for sectioning someone is quite straightforward with 2 psychiatrists and a social worker agreeing that they have a mental disorder of a nature and/or degree that warrants compulsory treatment. and completing relevant paperwork. There are safeguards in place in terms of the right to appeal and regular reviews by the tribunal of patients on long-term sections.

Procedures for forensic sections (that can be applied by the court for those over the age of 10) are a bit different. For example, section 37/41 does not give you any rights for appeal and the only person who can grant patient leave or discharge the patient is the secretary of state. Even the psychiatrist in charge of their treatment can't discharge them without a secretary of state say so. It is not common for children to end up on 37/41 but it happens, usually in relation to manslaughter on the grounds of diminished responsibility.

**Posted by kgreen20** November 20, 2017 11:51 pm

besleybean wrote:
Apart for the fact that was a very damaged little girl, who was abandoned by the state.

A very damaged and extremely dangerous little girl, who could literally brainwash everyone into doing whatever she wanted. A true psychopath who was fully capable of murder even as a little girl, and who was quite capable of brainwashing others into doing the same, simply by talking to them.

Unfortunately, in Eurus's case, there were no good solutions.

Last edited by kgreen20 (November 20, 2017 11:55 pm)

**Posted by besleybean** November 21, 2017 7:25 am

Yes and is that supposed to be her fault?
Certainly society needed protecting from her, she also needed protecting from herself, but she needed help. She was sick, not bad.

**Posted by belis** November 21, 2017 7:54 am

It is an interesting debate if psychopathy and other personality disorders are a mental illness or a character flaw. Law of different countries has a varied take on if personality disorder can be a defence in a way other mental illness is.

I think people find it easier to accept that someone did not know what they were doing because they were psychotic for example and lost touch with reality influenced by hallucinations and delusional beliefs. On the other hand, a psychopath knows exactly what they are doing and that it is considered to be wrong. They are incapable of empathy and the only consideration for them is if they are going to be caught. There is no capacity for remorse. You can argue that it is not their fault to have a brain wired in that particular way but on the other, they can make choices and it is their choice to do bad things for personal gains.

**Posted by Kittyhawk** November 21, 2017 10:55 am

belis wrote:
Mycroft is the government so the way I see it he would have little difficulties to circumvent the process. It would make sense for him to make Eurus disappear after a fire. It is easy to explain lack of the body in those circumstances and tell everyone that she was burnt to a crisp in her room.
...

I never doubted that Uncle Rudy/Mycroft were able to make Eurus disappear, I just doubted it was either morally right or legally correct. And as we seem to agree that they were "circumventing the process" I continue to find Uncle Rudy a despicable person - and possibly Mycroft as well, depending on how old and how manipulated by Rudy he was when he took over.

**Posted by Liberty** November 21, 2017 6:17 pm

I'm not sure that Eurus was meant to have a specific diagnosis. I got the impression that Moftiss were avoiding that. I'm very glad that they didn't go down the multiple personality/dissociative identity disorder route, although it must have been tempting!

**Posted by Vhanja** November 21, 2017 7:53 pm

I haven't been following this thread, but I do sometimes feel that death would be preferable to the "life" she is being forced to live inside those walls.

Don't get me wrong, I do agree that she is too dangerous to be let out. And she can't be treated. But wouldn't death be preferable to living your whole life behind blank walls with nothing to do?

**Posted by besleybean** November 21, 2017 7:54 pm

I think originally, yes.
But I at least like to feel Eurus has found some kind of healing and so hopefully she will become more accepting of her situation.

**Posted by belis** November 22, 2017 8:08 am

Kittyhawk wrote:
I never doubted that Uncle Rudy/Mycroft were able to make Eurus disappear, I just doubted it was either morally right or legally correct. And as we seem to agree that they were "circumventing the process" I continue to find Uncle Rudy a despicable person - and possibly Mycroft as well, depending on how old and how manipulated by Rudy he was when he took over.

I suspect that outcome for her would have been broadly similar. Having killed a child and then moving on to a serious arson more or less guarantees a very long stint in a very secure facility. I wonder what uncle Rudy's motivation was though. Somehow I doubt it was to spare her parents heartache of seeing her locked up for the rest of her life. More likely he was concerned what it is doing to his reputation to be related to a dangerous person like that and wanting to avoid publicity.

**Posted by belis** November 22, 2017 8:14 am

Vhanja wrote:
I haven't been following this thread, but I do sometimes feel that death would be preferable to the "life" she is being forced to live inside those walls.

Don't get me wrong, I do agree that she is too dangerous to be let out. And she can't be treated. But wouldn't death be preferable to living your whole life behind blank walls with nothing to do?

Quite possibly. It does raise serious questions though as to who decides if life is worth living or not. There are many patients in UK nurses in seclusion for years. It is not a good quality of life but to go ahead and euthanise them would be difficult. I know I would not volunteer for the job. Interestingly there is not mention of Euros ever trying to end her life. She does not seem depressed in the slightest by her circumstances and is keeping herself occupied creating elaborate master plans and playing complex mind games. She may not be that bothered about isolation. Psychopaths don't really care for other humans or crave company although they can find other people useful and genuinely enjoy a shared activity.

**Posted by kgreen20** November 22, 2017 9:24 pm

Don't forget that Mycroft gave her a violin and a number of opportunities to save lives. Not to mention a 5-minute unsupervised visit with Moriarty!

**Posted by Kittyhawk** November 23, 2017 11:05 am

belis wrote:
... I wonder what uncle Rudy's motivation was though. Somehow I doubt it was to spare her parents heartache of seeing her locked up for the rest of her life. More likely he was concerned what it is doing to his reputation to be related to a dangerous person like that and wanting to avoid publicity.

I suspect that was one reason. He might also have hoped that Eurus's genius mind would prove useful one day - as it did.

**Posted by belis** November 23, 2017 11:19 am

Kittyhawk wrote:
I suspect that was one reason. He might also have hoped that Eurus's genius mind would prove useful one day - as it did.

Placing her in a facility under his own control he can assure that he as free access and can utilise her intellect to his own gain. He is a bit arrogant so I think he underestimated her and never suspected that he may end up being a pawn in her elaborate game of human chess.