BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 / The “Mary Sue” Label

**Posted by BrettHolmes** July 19, 2016 8:00 pm

Every time a female character is highly competent and avoids or overcomes danger, they can be dismissed as a “Mary Sue” these days. Some people said this about River Song in Doctor Who and the same thing about Rey, the female protagonist in the new Star Wars trilogy. Now I hear people saying the same thing about Mary Morstan in Sherlock.

http://bassfanimation.tumblr.com/post/44647308975/about-mary-morstan

Do you think Mary is a “Mary Sue”? Personally, I can see reasons as to why some fans might not like her (I her just fine but I don’t think she should become a long term character) but I never saw her as someone’s “wish fulfillment” or “idealized fantasy.”

However, I do think it can be blown out of proportion. In fact, I sometimes wonder if “Mary Sue” is just form of sexism or belittlement from the geeks. If a heroine is very competent and has the ability to constantly survive, I would think that is their general purpose.

**Posted by Vhanja** July 19, 2016 8:36 pm

I am thinking that Mary Sue might have slightly different meaning for different people. I didn't view Mary as a Mary Sue after S3, but I started to after TAB. Not because she is highly competent - Molly and Irene are both highly competent in their own fields. Irene is also a character that is strong and able to survive, yet she is far from a Mary Sue.

In TAB (the modern day scenes), Mary seemed to not only outsmart Sherlock, but also Mycroft and the entire MI6. I don't think that is a positive thing.

It reminds me a bit about Peter Jackson's reasons for not having Faramir being able to ignore the power of the ring (as he does in the book): You spend an entire movie building up the power of this ring, and how strong it it. Having a person come out of the blue and being able to easily ignore it, would be to negate and diminsh the power of it.

Same thing with Sherlock and Mycroft. Sherlock Holmes is supposed to be a master in his field, one of the most intelligent men in Britain. He is outsmarted only by his brother, who is even more clever. And then, out of blue, comes this character who can see through Sherlock, outsmart him, outsmart his brother and hack MI6 from her mobile phone in less than two minutes. To me, that is not being highly competent. That is being a Mary Sue. And it negates the position of Sherlock and Mycroft that they have spent several seasons trying to build.

**Posted by besleybean** July 19, 2016 8:38 pm

But doesn't Irene outsmart them?
Moriarty is almost a match..

**Posted by Vhanja** July 19, 2016 8:39 pm

Moriarty is almost a match, which you need if your hero is to have a nemesis.

Irene seemed to outsmart him, but at the end she didn't - because of sentiment. She showed her weakness, that she wasn't perfect. Neither was she smarter than Sherlock in his own field, she played to quite a different strength. Which makes her interesting.

**Posted by nakahara** July 19, 2016 8:40 pm

"Mary Sues" are abundant between fictional men too, for example, I would put Arsene Lupin or James Bond among them without any hesitation.

I don´t think Mary Sue label hides sexism, IMHO. In my opinion, the label is usually used when the character is idealised to the point when it becomes almost unbearable (and of course, the level of "unbearable idealisations" is different with every member of an audience).

For me, Mary is "Mary Sue-ish" mostly in TAB. Perfect spy, better than Sherlock and Mycroft together, loved by everyone, even by the most misogynist detective, able to solve Bride´s case without doing any investigation whatsoever... and when John suggests that he will take her home he must make amends immediattely because, of course, it´s Mary who taks HIM home! LOL!

I get it that they wanted to make Mary competent, but hey, wouldn´t it be better if she had some actual flaws, like an actual human being?

But your milleage may wary, or course....

**Posted by besleybean** July 19, 2016 8:40 pm

@Vhanja She made Sherlock rescue her and Mycroft thinks she's dead!
@Nakahara: you don't think Mary has flaws?!

Last edited by besleybean (July 19, 2016 8:42 pm)

**Posted by Vhanja** July 19, 2016 8:41 pm

She shot Sherlock, I would certainly say that she has some flaws. ;)

However, I do agree that TAB made her way to Mary Sue-ish.

**Posted by besleybean** July 19, 2016 8:43 pm

Oh, we cross posted.

**Posted by nakahara** July 19, 2016 8:47 pm

besleybean wrote:
@Nakahara: you don't think Mary has flaws?!

Well, besley, regardless of what I think, the storyline treats even her more dubious characteristics like they are virtues not flaws.
For example, with her random shooting of Sherlock "she saved his life" and it was "surgery"...
Her malicious sarcasm is being regarded as "witty" and "feminist"... etc.

**Posted by Vhanja** July 19, 2016 8:50 pm

besleybean wrote:
@Vhanja She made Sherlock rescue her and Mycroft thinks she's dead!
@Nakahara: you don't think Mary has flaws?!

She didn't make Sherlock rescue her, I got the impression he did it by his own accord. Also, Mycroft think she's dead because Sherlock was a part of it ("It would take Sherlock Holmes to fool me").

nakahara - I don't think Mary shooting Sherlock is treated as a virtue in the series. To me, that becomes the opposite of Mary Sue - disliking a character so strongly that everything the character does or doesn't do is seen through a negative filter and interpreted as something bad. (I think Sherlock could win the prize for malicious sarcasm, so Mary certainly doesn't outrank him in that field).

Last edited by Vhanja (July 19, 2016 8:50 pm)

**Posted by besleybean** July 19, 2016 8:50 pm

@ Nakahara Maybe some of it is left for us to judge?
I'm not over familiar with this term and I'm not sure I like it.
Certainly for me Mary is a strong character. If we like her or not, is a different matter.

Last edited by besleybean (July 19, 2016 8:51 pm)

**Posted by nakahara** July 19, 2016 8:54 pm

Maybe... I don´t try to claim that my POV is the most correct one and the POV of others is not.
It´s just the impression I have after watching S3 anf TAB. I don´t know why, but Mary´s conduct doesn´t seem very kind or witty to me, although it probably was an intention of the authors to make it seem that way.

**Posted by SusiGo** July 19, 2016 9:02 pm

I am not very familiar with the label but in the light of recent speculations and metas on tumblr - mine included - I am quite sure that Mary is in very deep. That she is probably in some way attached to Mycroft. That she has approached John for certain reasons. That she is dangerous and not to be underestimated. And I do not think at all that she is meant to be lovable or sassy or witty but has been written as a formidable opponent to Sherlock (and John).

AO3 · **Posted by GimmeCat** July 20, 2016 1:13 am

Her Mary-Sue-ness in TAB can be forgiven because TAB is entirely a made-up fantasy and the people in it don't actually have to conform to realistic standards, particularly with a character that Sherlock still has very little clue about. Assuming he didn't read the AGRA stick (which I think he may have, but let's assume not) then he still doesn't know the first true thing about her, which in his eyes, makes her seem extremely powerful.

Edit: And if he DID read the stick, then he knows she's powerful and dangerous, and would present her that way in his hallucinations/dreams/MP.

Last edited by GimmeCat (July 20, 2016 1:14 am)

**Posted by Liberty** July 20, 2016 6:02 am

Yes, this is how he sees Mary, not necessarily how she is (although presumably there is some truth in there). I think Mary's involvement in the case in TAB was largely due to her being a woman (and Sherlock knowing that she was a secret agent, of course) who could perhaps go undercover in a way that Sherlock couldn't so well?

**Posted by SusiGo** July 20, 2016 7:31 am

I think that Mary in TAB has a strong connection to Mycroft and that this is not a coincidence but Sherlock's way of thinking. If you wish, please have a look at this:

http://stillgosherlocked.tumblr.com/post/147590764083/mycroft-mary-m

**Posted by besleybean** July 20, 2016 7:44 am

Certainly after originally thinking TBB 'M' was Moriarty, I later thought it could either be Mary or Mycroft.

**Posted by Liberty** July 20, 2016 5:03 pm

I agree that it's no coincidence. There has to be some explanation for Mary having apparently no connection to Mycroft pre-TAB, and then Sherlock seeing them as connected in TAB.

I think also, though, the "M" in TAB is a reference to ASIP - we think it's Moriarty and it turns out to be Mycroft. Which of course could mean that the "M" in TBB means exactly the same thing. They did leave that one open.

**Posted by dioscureantwins** July 21, 2016 12:52 pm

I confess I don't follow this discussion at all. I mean, as far as I know a Mary Sue in fanfic is this incredibly smart and witty female OC that gets to make out and get off with the main protagonists and is actually the author of the fanfic. So are we saying Moftiss are Mary Sues or what?

Also, to me TAB shows quite clearly that all the sequences until the last one take place in Sherlock's mind palace. So Mary doesn't actually outsmart Mycroft. In fact, I'm pretty much convinced Mycroft is tearing out his hair for letting this woman so dangerously close to his beloved little brother and the minions who didn't keep him appraised of the danger she is have been sacked and were lucky to escape with their lives.

**Posted by nakahara** July 21, 2016 2:14 pm

Mary Sue definition is much, much larger and does not neccessarily mean that Mary Sue must be an Author´s Avatar:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue

In the case of TAB, we really don´t know if Mary´s breaking the security of MI6 was real or not. To me, it seems real enough - the last scene of Sherlock waking up on a plane directly continues the dialogue about drugs from this scene. How could they continue their musings about drugs, if the first part of it was only in Sherlock´s head, I wonder? (What isn´t real, IMHO, is the scene with Sherlock waking up in a hospital and ending with dug up corpse jumping at Sherlock.)

Which, in result, means that Mary outsmarts Mycroft, MI6 and their security, easily finds the case hundred years old and even deduces what Sherlock was doing during his 4 minutes long exile.