BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 / Pronunciation of place names

**Posted by Yitzock** February 25, 2016 7:20 pm

Ariane DeVere wrote:
ukaunz wrote:
I prefer Ye olde English, myself
(Adopts fake pompous voice) And this is, of course, pronounced "The old English," and not "Yee oldey English," as you might expect! (/fake pompous voice)

I only learned that recently myself (thanks, QI!). We've all been saying 'Ye' forever but the 'Y' is an old-fashioned way of writing 'Th.'

Kent is a wonderful county for diabolical place names, like Wrotham (Rootem) and Meopham (Meppum). My favouite, though, is Trottiscliffe which you would never in a million years guess is pronounced Trozlee. Many years ago a friend and I drove there, got a bit lost a couple of miles away and pulled over to ask directions from a local. My friend said to him, "Is this the right road for Trozlee?" and he stared blankly at her for a few seconds, then recovered and said, "Yes! Sorry - I was so confused that you didn't ask for Trot-iz-cliff like most tourists do, that I couldn't think what you were talking about for a moment!"

That's a funny story, Ariane! I definitely would have never expected it to be pronounced that way.
Also I never knew "Ye" was suppose to be pronounced like "The." Very cool.

**Posted by ukaunz** February 25, 2016 8:18 pm

Ariane, that's great

I think I have possibly heard that "Ye" is really "The", from my mum's partner who is a Town Crier and Role Player and into this sort of thing. But that didn't stop me from thinking "Ye" when I typed it!

**Posted by besleybean** February 25, 2016 8:21 pm

I am a bit confused here.
It does mean 'the'.
But you do pronounce it 'Ye.'
The old joke is 'Ye Oldie tee(h)ee shoppie'.
As in Ye Olde Tea shoppe.

EDIT: ah, I get it now...Google was my friend.
It's a fallacy.
Of course 'ye' actually means 'you' and doesn't mean 'the' at all.

Last edited by besleybean (February 25, 2016 8:27 pm)

**Posted by ukaunz** February 25, 2016 8:34 pm

Not quite, besley

"Yee" has obviously become the common pronunciation, but it's historically incorrect.
I won't forget this fact again after today's discussion

Last edited by ukaunz (February 25, 2016 8:36 pm)

**Posted by ukaunz** February 25, 2016 8:36 pm

Sorry besley, crossposted with you and then tried to change what I said so it would make sense!

**Posted by besleybean** February 25, 2016 8:37 pm

Yeah sorry, I'm like a dog with a bone!
But just to clarify: there is an old English word 'ye'.
What is incorrect, is using it instead of 'the'.

**Posted by ukaunz** February 25, 2016 8:42 pm

You're right on that point

**Posted by Liberty** February 25, 2016 10:27 pm

"Ye" seems to mean "you", as in "God rest ye, merry gentlemen". On a related note, I find it very strange that a lot of modern English does not have plural (or formal) "you" (like the French "vous", or the Welsh "chi" for instance). But in some parts of the UK, people use "yous" or "youse" for the plural "you", which I personally think should become standard as it's much clearer!

**Posted by ukaunz** February 25, 2016 10:33 pm

Right, "ye" is "you" in most cases, just not in "Ye Olde Shoppe" which isn't even correct old English anyway.

"Yous" would be a useful word to have in modern English, as would gender-neutral words to use in place of she/he etc.

**Posted by Liberty** February 25, 2016 10:35 pm

Oh yes, gender-neutral words would be brilliant! I quite like "they", but it has it's limitations.

And just realised I'm straying from the topic, so a couple from my homeland:

Milngavie - pronounced Mulguy (or something similar - I can't think how to spell it!)
Culzean - pronounced Cullain.

Last edited by Liberty (February 25, 2016 10:40 pm)

**Posted by ukaunz** February 25, 2016 10:45 pm

It's like they want to be difficult

**Posted by Liberty** February 25, 2016 10:47 pm

I'm sure it's just so that we can point and laugh at tourists. Ha ha, those silly southerners/northerners/foreigners!

**Posted by Harriet** February 25, 2016 10:50 pm

Wisbech, anyone?

**Posted by nakahara** February 25, 2016 11:00 pm

ukaunz wrote:
"Yous" would be a useful word to have in modern English, as would gender-neutral words to use in place of she/he etc.

Wouldn´t it be wiser to just restore "thou" into its old place as singular of "you" and only use "you" for a plural?

**Posted by Liberty** February 25, 2016 11:03 pm

"Thou" and "thee" are still used in some parts! (For instance, in the Kaiser Chiefs' "I predict a riot"). I think "yous" is more popular (although I could be wrong - I just seem to have heard it a lot) and simpler (it obviously means "more than one you"), whereas "you" is pretty much standard for the singular version so should probably stay. But I agree, I'd be happy to hear "thou".

Last edited by Liberty (February 25, 2016 11:06 pm)

**Posted by ukaunz** February 25, 2016 11:07 pm

Liberty wrote:
I'm sure it's just so that we can point and laugh at tourists. Ha ha, those silly southerners/northerners/foreigners!

So, how would you go with some of these Australian place names?

Manuka (Marnukka)
Wagga Wagga (Wo-gah Wo-gah) (Edit: actually it's more like Wogga Wogga, and we shorten it to "Wogga" anyway)
Bondi Beach (Bon-die)
Coogee Beach (Could-jee)
Bulli (Bull-eye)
Monkey Mia (My-uh)
McKay (Mc K-eye)

Some I don't even know - like Ubirr (it's Oo-beer, apparently)

Then you have the tongue twisters that are fun to say:
Goondiwindi
Woolgoolga
Woolloomooloo
Jerrabomberra
Tuggeranong

I think the Maori place names in New Zealand are trickier though!

Last edited by ukaunz (February 25, 2016 11:11 pm)

**Posted by ukaunz** February 25, 2016 11:13 pm

Harriet wrote:
Wisbech, anyone?

Wiss-beck?

**Posted by Liberty** February 25, 2016 11:16 pm

Actually, those aren't too bad. McKay is pretty much like the Scottish McKay. I'm much more at a loss, say, in Gaelic-speaking parts of Scotland - I've never managed to get to grips with that language and pronunciation, despite being Scottish myself! There are just far too many letters, including silent ones! And then the mutations!

**Posted by Harriet** February 25, 2016 11:19 pm

ukaunz wrote:
Harriet wrote:
Wisbech, anyone?
Wiss-beck?

Wis-beach?

**Posted by nakahara** February 25, 2016 11:52 pm

Liberty wrote:
Actually, those aren't too bad. McKay is pretty much like the Scottish McKay. I'm much more at a loss, say, in Gaelic-speaking parts of Scotland - I've never managed to get to grips with that language and pronunciation, despite being Scottish myself! There are just far too many letters, including silent ones! And then the mutations!

Gaelic is beautiful language, but the pronounciation of it is really bizarre...

Ethne = Enya

Muircertach = Moriarty