BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 / Mary – the subject of discussion

**Posted by Lola Red** March 11, 2015 12:14 pm

Sherlock is terrible when it comes to sentiment; he likes to see himself above it when in reality he is anything but. I think he misses John a lot, that’s why the chair had to go, it hurt too much to see it empty, but of cause Sherlock would likely rather bite his own tongue off than admit that he can not live up to his big brother’s example of living without sentiment (though even Mycroft looses his cool when it comes to his baby brother).

**Posted by tonnaree** March 11, 2015 12:22 pm

I have no problem believing that Sherlock chose that particular drug den because he hoped John would find him.

**Posted by Lola Red** March 11, 2015 12:23 pm

I never thought you would

**Posted by tykobrian** March 11, 2015 12:48 pm

SolarSystem wrote:
Hm. I know this is not really about Mary, but what bothers me about HLV are all those coincidences. There certainly is more than one place in London where people do drugs, but of course Sherlock is lying right beside John's neighbour (does Sherlock know he's John's neighbour?). And then the evening in CAM's office. Of course Mary is there the exact minute that Sherlock and John are there, too. Is it just me, or is that a bit too much of a coincidence?

That coincidene is ACD canonical. The one with Mary is also somewhat what happened in ACD's story when those two broke into milverton's office. Except there Sherlock let the lady kill Milverton.

Last edited by tykobrian (March 11, 2015 12:50 pm)

**Posted by Vhanja** March 11, 2015 1:28 pm

The month apart I understood was because John and Mary went on their honeymoon after their wedding, and when they returned Sherlock was already gone (to the drug den, but they didn't know that). That's how I interpreted it.

**Posted by SusiGo** March 11, 2015 1:29 pm

Yes, that is true. But this does not contradict the idea that Sherlock lured John to the drug den or at least expected to meet him there.

**Posted by Vhanja** March 11, 2015 1:32 pm

I never understood why he talked to John in the drug den - he would have to know that John would be furious!

**Posted by SusiGo** March 11, 2015 1:34 pm

Because he missed him? And was high?

**Posted by nakahara** March 11, 2015 1:47 pm

I think their meeting in a den was a coincidence. Sherlock was not trying to bother John during the honeymoon, letting him live the life with Mary he had chosen for himself. But after a month, when he suddenly recognised John´s voice in a drug-den, being high, he became giddy with feelings and couldn´t restrain himself to speak with John once again, so he uncovered his identity in front of him.

**Posted by SusiGo** March 11, 2015 2:07 pm

Good point. We probably will never know for sure.

**Posted by Vhanja** March 11, 2015 2:38 pm

Good points. I just wondered why he sounded so annoyed and had his (hilarious, btw) tantrum, when he ought to have known how John would react to finding Sherlock high as a kite in a drug den.

**Posted by tonnaree** March 11, 2015 3:32 pm

That tantrum was one of my favorite scenes in all of S3! Sherlock sounded just like my teenage daughter.

**Posted by Liberty** March 11, 2015 6:54 pm

I think Sherlock is delighted to see John at the drug den, and just assumed that John would believe him - why not? That's what he does - works on cases, including undercover work ("Well, I'm not now!"). For all his perception, I think he sometimes misjudges how people will react, or doesn't care too much. In the same episode, he shows almost shows off his proposal to Janine as just a clever plan, for instance - a solution to a problem - as if he expects John to see it in the same way, when John clearly (to us!) wouldn't.

**Posted by mrshouse** March 13, 2015 7:58 am

Well, back to topic.
I read a post by Val in the "Why we love Mary"- thread, and since I shouldn't post there I'll put my thoughts here:
The scene in TSoT, when Mary makes the boys go out, the thumping up to them... I don't know, it's one of the many scenes in this episode that make me very, very, very sad. I don't want their relationship to be dependent on a third party. I want their relationship to be on its own rights, not having to be encouraged or get sorted in its weirdness by someone else. For me that's also very much against canon. I don't mean time stretches of being apart, but this being a bit uneasy around each other and on the surface needing the "support" of another person.
Furthermore it keeps nagging me that Mary's great support is stressed upon, but I feel nothing anymore in HLV.

**Posted by nakahara** March 13, 2015 8:28 am

I too was uneasy with that scene.

In previous episodes it was a refreshing and valuable thing that John was always able to speak to Sherlock honestly and directly, no matter if praising or criticising him. He never tried to hide his opinions from his eccentric friend.

But in this scene, Mary and John are whispering behind Sherlock´s back as if he was a child not being able to cope with direct, honest words anymore... they even have their code-word and the strategy to fool Sherlock´s sense of observation, so that he doesn´t notice they were speaking about him. Why was this neccessary? Why couldn´t John just say: "Sherlock, you need to unwind from this marriage business a bit, it´s getting over your head - pick a case, I´m taking you out"? Why this dishonest sneaking around and stupid fooling of an adult?

**Posted by Vhanja** March 13, 2015 8:33 am

I view that scene as less negative, I think. When I first saw it, I was happily surprised to see Mary being so supportive of John spending more time with Sherlock. In the "real world", a lot of brides-to-be would certainly try to make their husband-to-be spend less time with their friend who would get them into all sorts of dangerous situations. Not to mention more time spent with Sherlock means less time spent with Mary - that is a very mature thing to do for her.

I think in this case John needs a little push. It's clear from the whispered conversation between hin and Mary that he doesn't understand on his own why Sherlock is acting like he does and what he is scared of. He simply doesn't see that there is a problem. So he needs a nudge.

**Posted by SolarSystem** March 13, 2015 8:36 am

I agree with both of you, mrshouse and nakahara. Also, in the other thread it was said that this scene contains a lot of comedy - and I just don't see that. In my opinion it contains a lot of sadness. Just look at Sherlock - I mean, really, look at him! - sitting on the floor, surrounded by all those serviettes, when John steps back into the room. This breaks my heart.
It is possible of course that some of the things that are meant in a funny way just aren't funny to me. When Mary says that she knows when Sherlock's fibbing, or when she says "Let's stick her by the bogs"... I assume that a lot of people think that's funny. I don't.

Last edited by SolarSystem (March 13, 2015 8:37 am)

**Posted by Vhanja** March 13, 2015 8:44 am

SolarSystem wrote:
I agree with both of you, mrshouse and nakahara. Also, in the other thread it was said that this scene contains a lot of comedy - and I just don't see that. In my opinion it contains a lot of sadness. Just look at Sherlock - I mean, really, look at him! - sitting on the floor, surrounded by all those serviettes, when John steps back into the room. This breaks my heart.
It is possible of course that some of the things that are meant in a funny way just aren't funny to me. When Mary says that she knows when Sherlock's fibbing, or when she says "Let's stick her by the bogs"... I assume that a lot of people think that's funny. I don't.

I can see both "sides" here. In a way, I find TsoT to be the saddest and most heartbreaking episodes of them all. On the other hand, I also find it one of the funniest and warmest episodes. It sort of has it all.

So the scenes you mention I find both funny and heartbreaking (well, the "Let's stick her by the bogs"-line I fine purely funny).

**Posted by SolarSystem** March 13, 2015 8:51 am

Oh, there definitely are moments in TSoT which are funny and warm - but those aren't moments that have to do with Mary. They have to do with seeing the boys together, they have to do with Sherlock's declaration of love for John.

**Posted by nakahara** March 13, 2015 9:06 am

Vhanja wrote:
I think in this case John needs a little push. It's clear from the whispered conversation between hin and Mary that he doesn't understand on his own why Sherlock is acting like he does and what he is scared of. He simply doesn't see that there is a problem. So he needs a nudge.

And that´s exactly what I percieve as strange.

In ASiB, during an affair of Irene Adler, when no Mary was around, John was able to see something is wrong with Sherlock and he had tried to support and comfort him the best way he could.

Suddenly in TSOT he looses the ability to feel Sherlock´s distress and needs a third party to pint it out to him - despite the reason for Sherlock´s distress being so obvious a blind man could see it. (For example, the very first reasction of Sherlock on John´s request for best man spoke much about how shocked, nervous, almost hysterical it made him feel - and John is supposed to have missed it?)

In old Basil rathbone movies, John Watson was played for a bumbling fool - yet when Sherlock was distressed or hurt, even this bumbling John would immediattely feel it and quickly check on Sherlock if he´s allright and comfort him. And BBC John, much more keen and clever, isn´t able to do it anymore? Why?

Last edited by nakahara (March 13, 2015 9:07 am)