No-one seems to care about Rhododendron Ponticum.

Well, here I am again. There's an idea that has been making me go completely nuts. Since I first watched TRF, I've read a lot of theories from a lot of people about how Sherlock survived the fall. But now, since the first moment, I kept having this strange sensation that Sherlock really thought he could beat Moriarty and avoid the jump. I mean, he looks so scared when Moriarty kills himself, his conversation with John seems so real and his tears... I don't know, I have been overthinking this whole thing a lot and reading lots and lots of different opinions, and now I'm back to my initial idea. Sherlock was scared to jump because it was too risky, and he knew he could die. Surely he had something prepared just in case, but I don't think it's something really elaborated.

I don't know if a normal person can survive a fall like that without jumping in the truck or a safety net or something like that, but, have you ever considered the idea that he just survived the fall? Because we really don't know how long has it been since he jumped to John's and Mrs. Hudson's visit to the graveyard, so he could have been severely injured and be completely recovered some months later.

Anyway, surely it's stupid, but I can't stop thinking that he really was scared, because in the moment Moriarty kills himself, there's no one there he had to act for; they were alone, and Moriarty was dead. And his distress seemed pretty sincere.

I don't know if all this makes any sense, again, English is not my first language, I may express poorly... sorry 

Sherlock Holmes wrote:

Although can anyone answer why he couldn't have just said in his phone call "Moriarty is going to kill you unless I jump off this roof...but it's OK I've made arrangements with Molly and although you'll see me fall off and 'die', I won't actually be dead. I'll be whisked away and everything will be staged. I'll have to go away for quite a while and I won't be able to see you or keep in touch....but I will come back eventually. Just be patient and hold on." It would have saved John all that heartache!! (although obviously wouldn't have been as dramatic).

It's my thought that if he believed there was a continuing reason to keep up the suicide facade (and remember Moriarty is not solo; he's an organisation; he's "more than a man" as the cabbie says in Study in Pink) then he would need the reactions of John et al to be entirely genuine. Actual grief is always going to be more convincing than fake grief; and if those close to him knew Sherlock was alive, it would show in some way. It's in the nature of a maestro directing a performance, and John, Mrs Hudson, Lestrade, Mycroft, everyone is involved in the 'show' even if they are unaware. He's setting the stage for the rest of Moriarty's people. There are still 3 assassins and god knows who else out there and someone will have taken the reigns (Moran) when Moriarty died. The jump is only successful if they believe he has died; else they may go back to completing the job and kill his friends after all.

There r loads of points in the episode but I can't fit them all togather ,

Yes, that's true. If Moriarty was still alive...he would have watched the jump and probably noticed the "faking"...although not neccessarily because wasn't the assassin that was supposed to kill John watching the jump too, and he didn't notice anything out of the ordinary?? Or was his view obscured by the small building thingy?

Also, how did they know that John would come back to St Barts? How did the assassin/Moriarty know to wait for John at St Barts...why not wait for him at Baker Street, that would seem more logical?

kazza474 wrote:

Your English is fine.

Thanks  That's something I worry about all the time, please feel free to correct my grammar or ortography any time (that would be really helpful for me, I'm trying to improve my written English)

kazza474 wrote:

No-one could survive that jump without using something to break the fall. Not even Sherlock.

That's what I was thinking, but anyway, I wasn't sure if it was at least possible, though improbable.

kazza474 wrote:

Scared? Remember back to Study in Pink. He was quite prepared to take the capsule, he didn't show fright then even though he could have killed himself if he hadn't chosen correctly.

I think the Sherlock we see in Study in Pink is a quite different Sherlock than the one we see in Reichenbach; in the first case, I think he was sure he had chosen correctly and was willing to prove it. In Reichenbach, he has no choice but to jump if he wants to save his friends, it's not only about himself. Anyway, in Reichenbach I think Moriarty killing himself is a twist in his plan that he didn't expect and so he becomes nervous and scared.

kazza474 wrote:

Hmmm. The key to this must be in 'what was he planning for Moriarty?'

I absolutely agree. This must be the key but, as you said, what was he planning for Moriarty ALIVE. I mean, it can't be something like falling into the truck because Moriarty would have seen that... and his friends would have been killed anyway.

I also think Moftiss must be laughing out loud if they read all the things we poor "stupid" people (as Sherlock would consider us) think and write... Oh my God, I hate them!! 

Hello everybody,
I'm new to this interesting forum, but since the thread seems to be still active, I'd like to add a couple of thoughts.

First a couple of basics: In the first three episodes, as much as I liked them (for me the wit and intelligence of 'A Study in Pink' was never surpassed by the following episodes), the plotting was a little slapdash and not always logical. But, hey, they couldn't know at the time, that Sherlock would be such a corker. When the whole enterprise was a smashing success, they could plan further into the future. Which means, there is probably hardly anything random in the story line and the clues of the last three episodes. And MoGiss, being old fashioned whodunnit fans would be fair, and all the clues, we need , are to be seen onscreen. With a lot of red herrings of course.

Ok, so how did Sherlock fake his death? Mostly I agree with kazza474: Sherlock was not being played, he was the player all the time. He would have never allowed to be made into a celebrity, unless there was a purpose behind that.The outlines, if not the details of the plan to fake his death and go undercover was in place much earlier than we are led to believe. Molly, who has a lot of emotional intelligence ,realizes quite early, that there is something off with Sherlock. The possibility of having to jump must have been forseen by Sherlock. So he arranged a meeting with Moriarty at a place he is familiar with, and where Molly can help, as he asked her to do. Chalk lines marked, where exactly the garbage truck had to be parked. He then either jumps on top of the truck, which might have been prepared to make it safer, or, as kazza  wrote, some helpers (probably the homeless brigade)pull out a sheet like fire fighters to catch him, and then throw it onto the truck, which drives away quickly. In his telephone conversation with John he makes sure, that John remains at a place, where he can't see the actual impact. When John is out on the pavement, there is just enough time to arrange the scene, John finally gets to see. No dummies, clones, stuntmen or dead bodies from the morgue involved here. Keep it simple. And it's obvious, why Sherlock is genuinely scared,when he realizes, he really has to jump in order to save his friends: This is dangerous and could go wrong easily.
Now to the point, where I differ from kazza and most other opinions. Sherlock doesn't have to play dead and make his pulse completely disappear with a rubber ball under his arm (which is not possible anyway). On the contrary, John must be probably there to testify, that Sherlock is unconscious and badly injured, but still ALIVE, when he is whisked away on a stretcher. Why? Because a dead Sherlock would have to remain where he is, until a CSI team is finished with their investigations. But a barely but still living Sherlock has to get medical attention as soon as possible.His death in the hospital can be announced later.  If a dead body is removed just like that - a lot of people, including John, would have smelled a rat (I have to say here, that the medical helpers don't treat Sherlock in a very professional first aid way, but, hey, John is in shock and won't remember, and tv writers can't get everything right).
So did Sherlock just act half dead or was there more involved? MoGiss said, there was a very uncharacteristical behaviour of Sherlock and a clue, everybody overlooked. Now, there was a lot of uncharacteristical behavior of Sherlock in that episode, but something very specific struck me as odd and unlikely. But the clue first: Fairy tales of the Grimm Brothers are kind of a leitmotif of the episode. There is the book of the kids, the Hänsel and Gretel allusion, Moriarty's remark when he has tea with Sherlock, that every fairy tale needs a good villain. On the roof top he speaks again of fairy tales and pretty 'grim' tales, which is again a hint to the Grimm Brothers. But he doesn't only talk.He takes an apple, carves the enigmatic letters and takes a bite himself in order to form the O. Now think Snow White: She is poisoned by her evil stepmother, who takes a bite herself from the good side of the apple and feeds Snow White the manipulated bad part. Snow White appeares to be dead, is mourned and buried by her friends, the dwarfs, but comes back to life after a fall out of the casket causes her to spit out the poisoned chunk of the apple. The apple might be a hint of the authors for the audience and ties in neatly with the hint to the Rhododendron Ponticum. Most people dismissed that clue as a red herring, but I think, that is hasty.There might even be an inside joke of MoGiss. After all, Lord Blackwater from the 2009 Sherlock Holmes movie used honey made from Rhododendron pollen to fake his death. In the 21rst century you can't sell a fake death like Lord Blackwater's to an audience, but Sherlock could have used something like that for slowing his heart beat and pulse down, making himself unconscious and apparently near death. Another early symptom of Rhododendron Ponticum poison is sniffling and watery eyes. I think, Sherlock's tears, when he talks to John, are very much out of character.He certainly IS capable of strong emotions, but in this situation he had to be VERY cool and concentrated to avoid mistakes.His and the life of his friends depended on him keeping his cool. His tears would have been understandable,if he really was a fraud about to commit suicide, but he was in the middle of a very complex operation. He would have never succumbed to tears and emotions. I think,he took something like the Rhododendron poison, while still on the roof. This substance takes a while to kick in; taking it after the jump might have been too late. The sniffling and the tears might have been a sign that the drug kicked in.
Having written all this, I have to say, that the way Sherlock faked his death is by far not the biggest riddle for me. Much more interesting is the question, who helped him and who pulled the strings. Of course Molly and the homeless brigade were involved at ground zero, but Mycroft was probably pulling the strings of the whole operation in the background  for quite some time. I also think, that Lestrade knew, what was going on. He is no fool and has a very good understanding of Sherlock's psyche. He would not believe for one minute, that Sherlock is a fraud. And Sherlock himself names him as a friend, even after he had been arrested by Lestrade.
What remains a complete mystery to me are the interactions between Sherlock and Moriarty. My feeling is, that we haven't even scratched the surface there. What is Moriarty trying to tell Sherlock with the apple and the carving? Why does he owe Sherlock something? Why the graffity with the letters? Weren't the graffity artists Sherlocks friends and helpers?  What is Moriatry trying to communicate to Sherlock so desparately on the roof? What does Sherlock give him, when they apparently shake hands (there IS something small, Sherlock passes to Moriarty, just before he kills himself)? Why is Moriarty saying again, the final problem for both of them is staying alive? Why another allusion to fairy tales and the Grimm Brothers? Why is he suddenly peaceful and says 'Bless you' in a VERY different demeanor than in ALL his previous interactions with Sherlock?  AND WHY; THE HECK DOES HE KILL HIMSELF OUT OF THE BLUE? I have not the foggiest idea about any of these questions .

Last edited by sherlocked (March 9, 2012 8:26 pm)

#1 Welcome. Interesting to see a like minded person on some points. Please don't take any of my answering as argumentative etc, I have all the manners and graces of Sherlock at times

sherlocked wrote:

the plotting was a little slapdash and not always logical. .................being old fashioned whodunnit fans would be fair, and all the clues, we need , are to be seen onscreen. With a lot of red herrings of course.

Slapdash? Not logical? I can't see that. What I do see is a lot of people disregarding the first series as the original stories are nowhere near as well known, so a lot of the subtleties are missed; which you could interpret as an illogical sequence of events at times. But interesting opinion.

Chalk lines marked, ...

read back, not chalk lines (I think I posted pics on this one). Brickwork, but that's ok. He used what was there as a reference point. Very resourcefull & less noticeable

Because a dead Sherlock would have to remain where he is, until a CSI team is finished with their investigations.

Ummm, there's no-one there who is "in charge" - no police etc. The group organised by Sherlock can do as they please. No-one can stop them really. They have parts to act out, and they did it well.  Again, because they are 'acting out their plan' there is no necessity for any 'correctness' in what they do to this body, dead or alive. I don't think it's anything to do with bad scriptwriting or directing or anything. It's all intentional; they don't care what correct procedure may dictate. This is actually the biggest clue to the fact that this was all staged. People are being 'too clever' about correct medical protocol. Damn protocol, this isn't a medical show!

the Rhododendron Ponticum. ....... Sherlock could have used something like that for slowing his heart beat and pulse down, making himself unconscious and apparently near death. Another early symptom of Rhododendron Ponticum poison is sniffling and watery eyes.

I like the idea of the use of this drug however I doubt he made himself unconscious. That would mean he had no control over what was happening

I also think, that Lestrade knew, what was going on. He is no fool and has a very good understanding of Sherlock's psyche. He would not believe for one minute, that Sherlock is a fraud. And Sherlock himself names him as a friend, even after he had been arrested by Lestrade.

I doubt Lestrade ever knows what is really going on with regards to Sherlock. And Sherlock doubts it too! However, Lestrade is a 'new found' friend of sorts. He alerted John by phone that they would be coming to arrest Sherlock. John tells Sherlock 'at least you have one friend left on the force'. Even so, that is no reason for Sherlock to let him in on the plan. There'd be no reason to do so.

.....the apple and the carving? Why does he owe Sherlock something? Why the graffity with the letters?

I believe the IOU is just a taunt repeated over and over again, in many different ways. Moriarty is in some ways a child and a bully. And that's what bullies do, 'chant' over and over again.

Why is he suddenly peaceful and says 'Bless you' in a VERY different demeanor than in ALL his previous interactions with Sherlock?  AND WHY; THE HECK DOES HE KILL HIMSELF OUT OF THE BLUE? I have not the foggiest idea about any of these questions .

Good question. Why do insane people do anything when they have finally reached the end of their life? Sherlock drove him to that state, he was imploding. Using up every emotion he had left in him, till he had no more.

Ha, kazza, you ARE argumentative, lol! But, that's, what a forum is there for.
Answering some of your points:

How the writers work the original stories, with whom I am quite familar, into the modernized plot, is absolutely admirable, however, I could point out many lose ends and things, which don't make a lot of sense in the first episodes, which have nothing to do with the original stories. BUT I think, in the las 3 episodes, everything is finely tuned and might be important, even, if we don't see it yet.

Thank you for pointing out the brick work. To me it looked like chalk lines, but brick work makes a lot more sense and isn't suspicious.

I think, the missing CSI investigation of a dead body  cannot be dismissed as  just a tell tale sign, that everything was staged. Of course it was staged. We know that already, and the helpers could do for a while as they pleased. But later a lot of questions would have been asked. John, after the first shock, would become very suspicious. There might have been witnesses, who were outsiders. But a Sherlock, who is still alive, but terribly injured, has to be rushed away on a stretcher as soon as possible. Nothing suspicious about that (My quibble about the missing first aid protocol was minor and that point is not terribly important, but no CSI, when you have a dead body, would be a major glitch, which cannot be explained awy easily). And to announce that he died later would have been perfectly natural as well. My point: Sherlock does not have to appear dead, mortally injured and near death is enough. AND it makes the theory, that dummies or dead bodies from the morgue were used, very unlikely. But I think, we don't disagree on that point.

Later more about Moriarty's strange actions. While, what you say about his implosion makes a lot of sense, I think, his cryptic talk indicates, there's more behind the surface.

Last edited by sherlocked (March 9, 2012 10:30 pm)

I absolutely agree with you there. No arguments, no fun. I didn't take anything of your reply personally!