BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 / Mary's Choice

**Posted by Zatoichi** September 7, 2014 6:00 pm

A lovely light wrote:
Hah, i love how Mary is "the Snape" of Sherlock series - i remember how Snape was the most discussed person before HP7. And i bet that she would turn to have made despicable things buuuuutttttt still do something good to pay for the whole trust John and Sherlock had for her. She is set now to be the evil one, but like Dumbledore tell to Harry to trust Snape, Sherlock is telling John to trust her....

You know, I really think this is a possibility. But if they are going for this route I hope it will make as much sense as Harry Potter and will not be treated like the fall.. "Don´t think too much about it, everyone´s a critic, shut up now stupid Anderson *moonwalks out of the room*" ^^

Last edited by Zatoichi (September 7, 2014 6:02 pm)

**Posted by Harriet** September 7, 2014 6:00 pm

besleybean wrote:
Nothing.
He was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
I still wonder if Mycroft had a hand in this somehow...

I see. I was asking because you asked yourself what might have happened between them.
I think it's a good question: What could Sherlock have done to deserve this?
And I agree: Nothing.

**Posted by besleybean** September 7, 2014 6:05 pm

Oh sorry, I see the comfuson now.
No, I meant rather had something happened to Mary(maybe from CAM) which she felt made going to Sherlock an impossibility.
Or simply her life experience could have taught her to trust nobody and always act alone.

**Posted by Harriet** September 7, 2014 6:10 pm

Could be. But if so, I don't think it happened between TSoT and HLV but was there from TEH already.

**Posted by maryagrawatson** September 7, 2014 6:11 pm

Schmiezi wrote:
I understand why you expect her to be programmed. I would expect the same thing, but I fail to see a single proof for it on screen. There are tropes film makers use to hint at it, but none of them made it into the show. Di you have scenes where you think that it is shown clearly?

I believe that it's just who she is, that the evidence is in the fact that she was a government-trained assassin.

Mary

**Posted by Liberty** September 7, 2014 6:18 pm

Still, she doesn't shoot Magnusson (so doesn't act automatically at that point - she thinks about the consequences for John), and also doesn't go back to try to kill him later.

I'm a bit fuzzy about the space between the confrontation and Christmas - is Mary now "officially" their client? Does she know that they are going to get her files from Magnusson, so leaves them to it? Or is it just that getting the files isn't so urgent now that John knows?

Last edited by Liberty (September 7, 2014 6:19 pm)

**Posted by Zatoichi** September 7, 2014 6:22 pm

Harriet wrote:
I thought the same, Schmiezi. After all, Sherlock is her husband's best friend, the best man to their wedding and someone who had promised to always be there for help no matter what. If I had a big problem AND Sherlock's offer to help me, I'd burst out into tears of gratefulness.

Maybe she just couldn´t imagine that Sherlock would be more loyal to her than to John - and I think she has a point in this. Sherlock would have helped her, but he wouldn´t have lied to John. And she didn´t want to make a run for it, she desperately wanted to stay with John, especially with the baby.
Also I think her past (and I´m especially thinking about the "disillusioned"-deduction here) keeps her from trusting people.. she was probably fighting for herself for so long that she didn´t even think of confiding in someone.

**Posted by SusiGo** September 7, 2014 6:35 pm

molly212 wrote:
Why does she have to shoot him? I read many posts, but still couldn't find an answer. Thanks.

Just a note: I do not think she has to shoot him for any reason. I would just ask: Why does she shoot him?
Because otherwise it seems to imply for me that it is necessary to shoot him which of course it is not.

**Posted by besleybean** September 7, 2014 6:38 pm

But who knows what's going on inside her head?

**Posted by Liberty** September 7, 2014 7:11 pm

Zatoichi wrote:
Harriet wrote:
I thought the same, Schmiezi. After all, Sherlock is her husband's best friend, the best man to their wedding and someone who had promised to always be there for help no matter what. If I had a big problem AND Sherlock's offer to help me, I'd burst out into tears of gratefulness.
Maybe she just couldn´t imagine that Sherlock would be more loyal to her than to John - and I think she has a point in this. Sherlock would have helped her, but he wouldn´t have lied to John. And she didn´t want to make a run for it, she desperately wanted to stay with John, especially with the baby.
Also I think her past (and I´m especially thinking about the "disillusioned"-deduction here) keeps her from trusting people.. she was probably fighting for herself for so long that she didn´t even think of confiding in someone.

Sherlock does have a history of lying by omission to John when necessary (sometimes even when not entirely necessary), so I could believe it was possible. I thought he might lie if he thought it would be a risk to John (or himself?), but if he did care about Mary it might be enough for it to be a risk to her, or for her to be able to impress on him how important it was. After all, she "trusts" Magnusson to lie. Sherlock just needs a good enough reason (maybe a threat, but not necessarily). The problem would be getting the point across quickly enough before John came (and I can see why shooting was a less risky option for Mary).

**Posted by Harriet** September 7, 2014 7:57 pm

Zatoichi wrote:
Maybe she just couldn´t imagine that Sherlock would be more loyal to her than to John - and I think she has a point in this. Sherlock would have helped her, but he wouldn´t have lied to John. And she didn´t want to make a run for it, she desperately wanted to stay with John, especially with the baby.
Also I think her past (and I´m especially thinking about the "disillusioned"-deduction here) keeps her from trusting people.. she was probably fighting for herself for so long that she didn´t even think of confiding in someone.

Well, the vow Sherlock made he made to both, John and Mary. Sherlock would have found ways how to deal with John.
And a marriage will only work if the two involved work together and not hide crucial issues.
So if she can't trust people, her marriage is probably doomed anyway.

**Posted by SusiGo** September 7, 2014 8:00 pm

Yes. I cannot imagine that a man like John who has/had serious trust issues could build a happy relationship on a lie. Who guarantees that she is not going to lie again? Moreoever, Magnussen will not be the only one who knows about her past. They would always have to live with the danger of someone discovering what she once was and threaten/blackmail/kill her and her family. It is an enormous betrayal. Quite apart from the fact that they probably are not even legally married.

**Posted by Zatoichi** September 7, 2014 8:06 pm

Harriet wrote:
Zatoichi wrote:
Maybe she just couldn´t imagine that Sherlock would be more loyal to her than to John - and I think she has a point in this. Sherlock would have helped her, but he wouldn´t have lied to John. And she didn´t want to make a run for it, she desperately wanted to stay with John, especially with the baby.
Also I think her past (and I´m especially thinking about the "disillusioned"-deduction here) keeps her from trusting people.. she was probably fighting for herself for so long that she didn´t even think of confiding in someone.
Well, the vow Sherlock made he made to both, John and Mary. Sherlock would have found ways how to deal with John.
And a marriage will only work if the two involved work together and not hide crucial issues.
So if she can't trust people, her marriage is probably doomed anyway.

I agree that their marriage was built on lies and probably doomed anyway. I was not trying to defend Mary, just trying to imagine what went on in her head in that moment..

**Posted by Zatoichi** September 7, 2014 8:13 pm

My edit-button seems to be gone?
I wanted to add that while Sherlock made the vow to both of them and has lied to John before I can´t imagine he would take sides with Mary in something as important as this.. he risked his life in order to show John the truth after the shot, after he obviously figured out everything about her himself, so what could she have said before the shot to make him not tell John?

**Posted by Harriet** September 7, 2014 8:19 pm

I see. My ideas about what went on in her head go into a different direction, but yes, it is a sad thing.

**Posted by Harriet** September 7, 2014 8:21 pm

My edit button as well.

Agree with your second post.

**Posted by Liberty** September 7, 2014 8:39 pm

My edit button seems to have gone as well. Which makes me nervous as I almost always edit.

But anyway, I'm playing devil's advocate really, because I don't disagree, but Sherlock's attitude changed after the shooting, and he risked his life after Mary's threat. Before that, he did seem prepared to help her. I don't mean that he would have sided with her against that John, but that he would have kept quiet if he thought it was the right thing to do - if she could have persuaded him of that.

After all, what was there to gain from telling John if Mary wasn't dangerous? Would it make him safer or happier? But anyway, I'm only talking short term - Mary only had to convince Sherlock long enough to keep him quiet until she could get out of the building and get him alone later (to explain, threaten, whatever it took). At that point she wouldn't be in any worse position than if she'd shot him. (Shooting him does have the advantage of making him scared of her, but that has the disadvantage of making him tell John).

Just saying that there was another possible option, and she chose to go for the much more violent one.

**Posted by besleybean** September 7, 2014 8:42 pm

So do we think this is a pointer to what she might be prepared to do in the futiure?

**Posted by Schmiezi** September 8, 2014 4:30 am

Probably. (But then, there is so much foreshadowing on the show that every flower pot could be a pointer to what will happen in S4. )

**Posted by besleybean** September 8, 2014 6:00 am

Yeah, I know.
Sorry, I was more musing(again) on why people are so focused on what happened in these scenes...we know what happened and how it turned out- we've moved on since then!
Surely it's more importatnt what IS going to happen?...
Unless that's just a personal thing with me.
It just feels like some cannot accept what's shown or the expalanations given.
Well this may be apt, if it turns out there is some deeper or future significance to things, but otherwise, I see little point in dissecting a TV show! I take what is given , unless shown new information.