Posted by maryagrawatson August 15, 2014 2:21 pm | #101 |
Mattlocked wrote:
I'm quite interested in reading your blog, btw. Where can I find it?
I'm enjoying the anonymity here and prefer to not share the link.
Mary
Posted by SusiGo August 15, 2014 2:51 pm | #102 |
Which is of course fine. Anyone who wants to remain anonymous may do so. I think some of just got a bit curious after you mentioned being a famous blogger.
Last edited by SusiGo (August 15, 2014 2:54 pm)
Posted by maryagrawatson August 15, 2014 3:01 pm | #103 |
It's fun to be here and be a crazy fannish person instead of so-and-so from the blog and to share things here that I would never share there. For example, I just don't see myself saying things like "OMG, Benedict Cumberbatch is so hooooooooooooooooot!" on my blog.
Mary
Posted by Mattlocked August 15, 2014 3:04 pm | #104 |
SusiGo wrote:
Which is of course fine. Anyone who wants to remain anonymous may do so. I think some of just got a bit curious after you mentioned being a famous blogger.
Oh yes. The more often I read it the more curious I get.
Posted by Liberty August 20, 2014 9:22 am | #105 |
I've now seen HLV and read more of your threads here, and I'm wondering if there's more to this wedding than first meets the eye. There are so many things that are "off" about the whole thing. It's bothered me that John and Mary plan such a flashy wedding to start with, because it doesn't seem like something they (as characters) would go for. It becomes even more strange, when you find out that Mary is essentially in hiding. She's trying to keep her identity secret. What could be be more public and exposing than a big, fancy wedding? Why does she do that? It's not for friends and family - they're thin on the ground.
She must be sending some sort of message. Although she seems a little shocked at the message from CAM, she must have expected it. After all, she's made his PA her bridesmaid! That goes a little beyond befriending her for information. Sherlock says it was a stroke of luck that he met Janine at the wedding, but of course it wasn't. Mary was using her, and Sherlock continued to use her for the same purpose. And Sherlock knows that, doesn't he? That Mary was using Janine to get to CAM? When did he know? You see, he might just be having fun with Janine at the wedding because he's enjoying the social interaction ... but it's not something he normally does. Is he sussing out the situation?
One thing that was a little odd, but which I haven't worried much about it is that Sherlock, quite inappropriately really, speaks for Mary when he says that "we will never let you down, and we have a lifetime ahead to prove that". Why does he speak for Mary? And later, he makes the vow to all three, a vow which seems to tie him into acting as he does in HLV, but why? I kept thinking that he was using the wedding as a way to say things to John that would be difficult in private, and I still think that applies, but there seems to be more to it. And it seems to be the pregnancy that inspires that last vow.
I don't have any convincing theories at all, just that I am getting the feeling that Sherlock might know more than he's letting on throughout TSOT. And just as Mary has for some reason, publicised herself with a wedding, Sherlock seems to be choosing to change his public image - why? He also describes himself as a sociopath yet again (creating an image), and again in HLV (to give a public reason for the shooting). At the start of HLV he publicises himself as a drug user to create a fake "pressure point" in CAM's mind. He also sent a message to Moriarty in a similar way. (Moriarty fell for it, CAM didn't, so I'm a little disappointed that CAM is the one who is dead!). That's what Sherlock does with his public persona - he uses it to send messages. (And so does Mary?). In this case, it's possible that it's only a message to Mary - that he's wanting Mary to underestimate him. Why?
I thought Sherlock was so extremely loyal to Mary because John loved her and Sherlock thought she was good for John. But his apparent loyalty continues even after he thinks she's a danger to John. He defends Mary, covers for her and pushes them together. There's got to be some ulterior motive, some grand plan that hasn't shown itself.
After all, Sherlock knew Mary was lying from the beginning.
The trouble is that I'd expect all this to be resolved by the end of HLV, and it isn't. So maybe, yet again, I'm seeing things I want to see?
Posted by tonnaree August 20, 2014 12:32 pm | #106 |
"I've now seen HLV and read more of your threads here, and I'm wondering if there's more to this wedding than first meets the eye. There are so many things that are "off" about the whole thing. It's bothered me that John and Mary plan such a flashy wedding to start with, because it doesn't seem like something they (as characters) would go for. It becomes even more strange, when you find out that Mary is essentially in hiding. She's trying to keep her identity secret. What could be be more public and exposing than a big, fancy wedding? Why does she do that? It's not for friends and family - they're thin on the ground.
She must be sending some sort of message. Although she seems a little shocked at the message from CAM, she must have expected it. After all, she's made his PA her bridesmaid! That goes a little beyond befriending her for information. Sherlock says it was a stroke of luck that he met Janine at the wedding, but of course it wasn't. Mary was using her, and Sherlock continued to use her for the same purpose. And Sherlock knows that, doesn't he? That Mary was using Janine to get to CAM? When did he know? You see, he might just be having fun with Janine at the wedding because he's enjoying the social interaction ... but it's not something he normally does. Is he sussing out the situation? "
Very interesting. I never thougtht of that aspect before. Mary using the wedding to send a message to CAM. Sort of a "here I am - bring it on" statement. This would also fit in with Mary being so upset about being pregnant. Discovering that she was going to have a baby might make her panic and change her plans for dealing with CAM. Perhaps make her go forward much sooner than she originally was going to.
Posted by La Jolie August 20, 2014 8:43 pm | #107 |
As to why John and Mary had such a big, traditional wedding in the first place - I don't think John would have insisted on it but why shouldn't it have been very importan to Mary? Even without assuming that Mary used the wedding to make a declaration of war on CAM (much as I find this an intriguing idea), even without any hidden purpose in mind, I find it believable that Mary (of all people) should want it that way. I can perfectly believe that she truly wanted to put her past behind her forever and live a normal life from then on, including all the lovely romantic traditional stuff like having a big wedding that professional assassins don't usually get to enjoy.
And John wouldn't be the first bridegroom to have just been swept along and said yes to everything as long as his bride was happy. Plus, think of the additional pressure on John to comply with everything once Sherlock had taken over the wedding as HIS very own special project. From that point on I don't see how John would have stood any chance of making the wedding "his" wedding, even if he'd have wanted to celebrate it in some specific, very different way.
Liberty wrote:
After all, Sherlock knew Mary was lying from the beginning.
Isn't that a misunderstanding - from his "deductions" about Mary in TEH we know that he sensed that she was "a liar", but he didn't know (or didn't bother to find out) in what specific way she was a liar and whether it touched her relationship with John. I got the impression that the revelation that Mary's entire identity and biography were one big lie came as a huge surprise to Sherlock in HLV. He certainly didn't expect to meet her in CAM's office, did he? So I believe his interaction with her in TEH and TSOT was quite innocent.
As for
Liberty wrote:
One thing that was a little odd, but which I haven't worried much about it is that Sherlock, quite inappropriately really, speaks for Mary when he says that "we will never let you down, and we have a lifetime ahead to prove that". Why does he speak for Mary? And later, he makes the vow to all three, a vow which seems to tie him into acting as he does in HLV, but why? I kept thinking that he was using the wedding as a way to say things to John that would be difficult in private, and I still think that applies, but there seems to be more to it. And it seems to be the pregnancy that inspires that last vow.
As to Sherlock's words to John in the speech being inappropriate, I beg to differ. Just imagine he would not have spoken for Mary, but excluded her completely, and spoken only for himself? Now that would have been inappropriate indeed. It would have been a deliberate affront towards Mary. He's been intruding on their wedding and on their marriage enough already, he really couldn't go so far as to openly make a rival marriage vow to the groom that deliberately excluded the bride. The only other way he could have put it would have been to speak only for himself but to both of them, as in "I will never let the two of you down", but then it would no longer have been the single beautiful declaration of love to John that it was supposed to be. (NB: Not a Johnlocker speaking here - I don't ship them romantically but I believe their relationship defies the usual boundaries of the term "friendship", so I use to word love because "friendship" doesn't seem a big enough word.)
I also think there's a second aspect to him deliberately including Mary in that promise - I think he also wants to make a public declaration that he's fine with John having found a wife and leaving 221b and all that it entails. He may feel very differently in his heart but he wants to give John and Mary a sort of official blessing, he wants to make it official that it will be he and Mary looking after John from now on. It's just one more example of the extraordinary lengths he goes to in order to make John happy.
As to why that vow from the speech needed a repetition later on, after the waltz, is the writers' secret - I believe its narrative purpose was simply to set up the "three of you" revelation, but the repetition does take away from that beautiful moment in the speech earlier on. Then again, I really like your interpretation that by the time of the speech, earlier on in the day, Sherlock hadn't yet made the deduction of the pregnancy, and once he'd realised that, he had to make another vow (or intensify the first one) to include the baby.
Last edited by La Jolie (August 20, 2014 8:54 pm)
Posted by Liberty August 20, 2014 9:06 pm | #108 |
In a way, a big wedding doesn't work for Mary, though. She has nobody to invite. All the performance of the wedding is to a room full of strangers. Her main guests are an ex-boyfriend, and the bridesmaid (who she's using to get to CAM). She has less reasons than most to want a big wedding, but she has one very strong reason not to - she's in hiding.
I agree with you about Sherlock's deductions about Mary in TEH - there's nothing specific there, but I think "liar" would have alerted him and he'd have been observing. I suspect that he does guess something, but it might have just been that he thought CAM had something on her (hence Janine). Or maybe he didn't even get that far. But he does act differently with Janine (than he does with other women) even before HLV.
I think Sherlock's words are inappropriate in that he's making her vows for her. That's odd unless he'd consulted with Mary beforehand and she'd wanted him to say that. Maybe it would be different if he'd known Mary a long time, rather than just meeting her at the proposal? I agree that it would be difficult to make that vow to John alone, but by making it from both of them it also means it's negated very quickly when Mary does let John down. (I even wonder if there was a message to Mary there as well as to John - I know you're not what you seem, don't let him down? Will have to watch it again). I'm not a Johnlocker either, but I like to think of it as a special friendship or a romantic friendship. I do think Sherlock and John love each other.
Posted by tykobrian August 21, 2014 10:18 am | #109 |
Liberty wrote:
... Then there was Sherlock being surprised at being John's best friend. It didn't make any sense. Sherlock has called John his friend in the very first episode (ASiP). Just in the last episode, John has said that Sherlock is the best man he's ever known. I know Sherlock can sometimes miss the obvious, but I didn't find it believable that he would be so dumbfounded at being John's best friend. It was a sweet little scene otherwise. And I recognise that Sherlock is telling a story, and it's possible that it didn't actually happen like that...
I think Sherlock did believe that John considered him his best friend it at the start of TEH. He also probably read John’s blog where he said it too. That’s why he was so INCREDIBLY cocky about revealing himself, and said, “John will be delighted!”, "What life, I've been away" and so forth. We know during TRF Sherlock still had doubts about John’s loyalty and just how much he meant to John*, so the fall changed all that for Sherlock.
Then when he saw how hurt John was, and how John didn’t want to talk to him at first, he thought he’d ruined it all. He gets why he ruined it all, even, and tries to apologize with the bomb thing. He goes through some self-loathing and just spends his time trying to make it up to John. But it’s not like it was before, and John spends a lot of time with Mary, and Sherlock feels relegated to a mere acquaintance or whatever. Not someone important to John.
So when John comes to him in TSoT and tells him he’s his best friend like it's so f*****g obvious, Sherlock is like, WHAAAAAAAAAAAT! He can’t believe John considers him his best friend EVEN AFTER the disaster of Sherlock’s return. That blows his mind. And not to mention we learn from his wedding speech that he always had this disbelief of how someone like John would ever consider someone like Sherlock his best friend.
*
a)
Sherlock: It really bothers you.
John: What?
Sherlock: What people say.
John: Yes.
Sherlock: About me? I don’t understand – why would it upset you?
b)
Sherlock: I don’t care what people think.
John: You’d care if they thought you were stupid, or wrong.
Sherlock: No, that would just make them stupid or wrong.
John: Sherlock, I don’t want the world believing you’re ...
Sherlock: That I am what?
John: A fraud.
Sherlock: You’re worried they’re right.
John: What?
Sherlock: You’re worried they’re right about me.
John: No!
Sherlock: That’s why you’re so upset. You can’t even entertain the possibility that they might be right. You’re afraid that you’ve been taken in as well.
John: No I’m not!
Sherlock: Moriarty is playing with your mind too. CAN’T YOU SEE WHAT’S GOING ON???
Posted by Liberty August 21, 2014 10:48 am | #110 |
But you missed out the next lines, and I think they're very important:
John: No, I know you're for real.
Sherlock: A hundred percent?
John: Well, nobody could fake being an annoying dick all the time.
John lets Sherlock know that he has absolute faith in him, and Sherlock seems to believe him. I found this bit very moving (even despite John's joke!), because Sherlock has to keep so much information from John, and yet John trusts him. He believes in who he is, not what he (apparently) does.
And although the "death" obviously changes things, at the end of TEH, John calls Sherlock the best and wisest man that he's ever known and says that (of course) he forgives him.
I don't believe that Sherlock wouldn't attach any weight to those heartfelt statements and believe he was just some acquaintance of John's. Or that he had less of a place in John's life than Mike or Greg. How much does John even see of Mike or Greg? After all, Greg is more friends with Sherlock than he is with John, so how could Greg be John's best friend, when John is Sherlock's best friend?
Last edited by Liberty (August 21, 2014 11:38 am)
Posted by Zatoichi August 30, 2014 6:14 am | #111 |
I agree with Liberty, even if the fall had been a complete game changer for their relationship, at the end of TEH they were reconciled, even if still a bit on shaky ground. John was back in 221b even before the bomb-scene, he said he forgave him, and they had a real touching reunion in the hallway. I would have believed his feelings if he had been really relieved and a bit surprised at John's proposal to be his best man, but the complete system shut-down just didn't ring true with me. Yes, it is cute, but you know.. Continuity?
Another thing I find touching but very confusing at the same time time is Sherlock's "I solve the murder, John Watson saves the life". This is so not true during the series.. Yes, John noticed the guard wasn't dead and helped Sherlock in several occasions. But the one who saved countless lives was Sherlock. He saved Sarah, Moriarty's hostages, the abducted children, Henry Knight and last but not least Lestrade, John and Mrs. H. And that list doesn't count the future victims that were saved by stopping the cabbie and Moriarty. John showing more empathy towards the victims does not equal saving their lives, on the contrary. I think Sherlock is quite right in TGG that in order to think straight in times of great distress you have to distance yourself from emotions. And I find it a bit.. jarring?. that everyone including himself seems to agree in this ep that Sherlock is the problematic one and John the good guy. This is only true at a superficial level , and they could have emphasized John's value without putting down Sherlock's achievements and his personality in return imo..
Posted by Liberty August 30, 2014 12:30 pm | #112 |
Zatoichi wrote:
Another thing I find touching but very confusing at the same time time is Sherlock's "I solve the murder, John Watson saves the life". This is so not true during the series.. Yes, John noticed the guard wasn't dead and helped Sherlock in several occasions. But the one who saved countless lives was Sherlock. He saved Sarah, Moriarty's hostages, the abducted children, Henry Knight and last but not least Lestrade, John and Mrs. H. And that list doesn't count the future victims that were saved by stopping the cabbie and Moriarty. John showing more empathy towards the victims does not equal saving their lives, on the contrary. I think Sherlock is quite right in TGG that in order to think straight in times of great distress you have to distance yourself from emotions. And I find it a bit.. jarring?. that everyone including himself seems to agree in this ep that Sherlock is the problematic one and John the good guy. This is only true at a superficial level , and they could have emphasized John's value without putting down Sherlock's achievements and his personality in return imo..
Yes! Actually, that guard scene wound me up even before we got to that part of the speech. I couldn't understand why the guy was just left there. He didn't even look dead. I imagine >90% of people who found somebody collapsed and bleeding in the shower would have called an ambulance and tried to make sure he was safe. The whole thing relied on everybody else acting like idiots. Even John takes his time arguing for a little while instead of saying "Call an ambulance. And please check him - he looks like he's still alive". When he does examine him, he pokes about in the wound area instead of checking if the guy's alive or dead, so it's a few more seconds before he finally thinks of calling an ambulance. Oh, and he doesn't even staunch the bleeding himself - he tells Sherlock to do it.
(There, I've got that off my chest! The irony is that John probably does save lives more efficiently but less dramatically as a GP, by spotting serious conditions and referring appropriately. It makes me wonder if Sherlock was struggling with what to say about John when writing the speech. Pathological attraction to danger? Can't say that. Will kill to protect Sherlock? Um, no. John. Dr Watson. Doctor. Doctors save lives. That'll do. And here's an anectode to go with it.)
When Sherlock said it, it really grated, because Sherlock had been presented to us as a saviour, much more than John. Even in that particular case, you could say that Sherlock saved Sholto's life (when John couldn't). The whole point of Sherlock faking his suicide and going into exile for two years was to save lives. They even gave us that crucifixion pose when he's being tortured in Serbia. He'd saved John from the bonfire only recently. And in fact, it's funny that Sherlock should choose that particular thing to talk about when praising John, because I think it's the other way round. While John's major motivator is danger/excitement, Sherlock is actually (secretly) motivated by saving people (and other things too, but I think that's a/the big one).
Sherlock's quite capable of empathy too. I love the little scene in TRF with Mrs MacKenzie, the house mistress, where he appears cold-hearted and aggressive, but only acts that way to get the information as quickly as possible (children's lives are at stake). He could have just walked off with the information, but he switches instantly to being caring, letting Mrs MacKenzie know that he believes her and telling the others to look after her.
So it's strange. Sherlock is saying something which he knows isn't quite true - or at least, knows that it applies to him more than John.
Last edited by Liberty (August 30, 2014 12:32 pm)
Posted by Zatoichi August 30, 2014 1:48 pm | #113 |
He seems very eager to publicly put himself in the sociopath-corner again.. just when I hoped this wouldn´t be necessary anymore because he developed out of this facade. Maybe a conscious effort to distance himself from the happy couple and trying to retreat into "alone is what I have, alone protects me" again? Because he couldn´t allow himself to get involved and to feel too much? I could actually imagine this being the reason behind demeaning himself and show off just how offensive he can be during the speech..
Posted by besleybean August 30, 2014 2:38 pm | #114 |
Sherlock just speaks the truth.
If other people have an issue with it that's their problem and not his.
Last edited by besleybean (August 30, 2014 2:39 pm)
Posted by Liberty August 30, 2014 3:16 pm | #115 |
I don't think he's a little disingenuous about that. He likes people to think he just speaks the truth and doesn't care, but he does seem to care about the effect of what he says (and says things deliberately for effect).
The "alone" quote is when he's alone for other people's protection, not his own ... and he is displaying a lot of genuine feeling as well. I don't know. Still very confused about this episode and about what he's trying to do. I thought I'd get some answers in HLV, but I still don't know for sure what he's hiding in that episode either.
Posted by Zatoichi August 30, 2014 4:05 pm | #116 |
besleybean wrote:
Sherlock just speaks the truth.
If other people have an issue with it that's their problem and not his.
I don´t think sticks strictly to the truth, he tries to keep up a certain image.. "I was actually very close to being moved by it.." seriously, Sherlock? ^^
Regarding the "alone" quote, I actually think that before he met John that´s what he told himself. That he doesn´t want or need "fffffriends" anyway. Maybe he felt the need to go back to that self-protecting sociopath-label now that John was going to spend a lot more time with his new family (and everyone kept rubbing it in).
Posted by silverblaze August 31, 2014 9:54 am | #117 |
Never mind the wedding, could just be an excuse for some flashy cinematography, but why does someone who carries a deadly secret want a detective on her side and even tries to get John and Sherlock together once she learns that Sherlock isn't dead?
Posted by Liberty August 31, 2014 10:22 am | #118 |
He certainly doesn't speak the truth when it comes to his own thoughts, feelings, plans, motivations, etc.
Silverblaze, she does really push them together, doesn't she? Right from the beginning, almost as if she was going through John to get to Sherlock. I could believe it.
Posted by SolarSystem August 31, 2014 12:09 pm | #119 |
silverblaze, Liberty, following your thoughts that could even mean that she choose John deliberately from the very beginning because she knew that Sherlock was still alive...? If she didn't know and she just met John by chance, it really would have been safer for her to stay as far away from Sherlock as possible. She must have known there was a good chance that he (and maybe also his brother) would eventually discover the truth about her...
Posted by La Jolie August 31, 2014 1:01 pm | #120 |
SolarSystem wrote:
If she didn't know and she just met John by chance, it really would have been safer for her to stay as far away from Sherlock as possible. She must have known there was a good chance that he (and maybe also his brother) would eventually discover the truth about her...
But then when she met John they all thought Sherlock was dead. So it would have been "safe" for her to approach John. I truly think that she wanted to leave her old life behind her when she got together with John. Sherlock's reappearance must have been a shock to her not only on John's account but also on her own. Maybe instinctively she wanted to stay away from him, but figured that if she avoided him, it would make him suspicious? But then when she says "I like him" in TEH, she sounds completely honest.
Well. I remember from the cast interviews that Amanda wasn't aware of what Mary's secret was when she played her in TEH and TSOT. She said that she preferred it that way and I believe her, but that may be the reason for some of the inconsistencies in her relationship with Sherlock that you pointed out.
I prefer to explain it by her thinking she really had left it all behind and it was only when she found out that CAM knew about her that it all bubbled up again like a bloody eye in a mug of tea. Which it wouldn't have had, btw, if Sherlock had really died in TRF. Is she ever angry with him for that?
Last edited by La Jolie (August 31, 2014 1:20 pm)