The thing that bothered me about Sherlock when I was watching S2 was that he kept so much from John.  It wasn't even as if they instinctively understood each other and didn't need to talk.  John really didn't have a clue, not just about what was going on, but about what Sherlock was feeling, and by extension, who Sherlock was.   It started off being Sherlock's fault, but I think by S3 it's John's fault too, because he just doesn't want to know.     Maybe he prefers the darker, more dangerous, cold-hearted, psychopathic character that's in his imagination over the real man who cares so much he'll give his life for him, and he tries to cling to that view of Sherlock despite the evidence.  (But at the same time, thankfully, he does seem to recognise the good in Sherlock - the best and wisest man, the most human).  It's a little disturbing.   I think John is sometimes presented as being Sherlock's moral compass and he likes to believe himself such, but Sherlock is the more morally good. 

Apart from his lack of communication, I agree with all your examples, Zatoichi.  He's also the one who comforts Sarah in TBB, he's caring towards the house mistress after shouting at her in TRF, etc.  I think he's caring and un-psychopathic throughout.   Even if you look at his cases, it's not just about the challenge of finding the villain - it's about stopping other people being hurt. 

I do think there's a change in S3, but I agree that some of that (not all of it) is a natural extension of S2.  TRF shows just how far he will go to save people, so it shouldn't be too much of a surprise that he's so selfless in S3.  I think what struck me about S3 is that he should have come back as a hero, and yet people still see him as a sociopath (and he continues to try to create that image), including John, who should know better.  But doesn't want to know better.   It still bothers me that Sherlock doesn't seem to get any thanks for what he had to go through during the two years, and seems to spend the rest of S3 apologising for saving people's lives. 

Anyway, that was off topic too (sorry), but no, it doesn't make Sherlock psychopathic if he talks Moriarty into suicide, just clever.  His motivations are about saving people.  Claming that he's not a hero, that he's not an angel - all lies.   He's just prepared to use methods that other people wouldn't.
(Edit: sorry, I wrote this post before I saw your post above, Zatoichi)

Just adding: I think it's very fitting that Sherlock uses something that Moriarty used right back in the first episode (talking people into killing themselves).   Except Sherlock does it properly.  Moriarty (and the cabbie's) methods aren't very clever at all - just threatening violence to the person or their loved ones if they don't do what they're told.  How do you talk somebody into doing what you want, without threats?  You make them think it was their idea.  Which is what Sherlock does.

Last edited by Liberty (September 1, 2014 7:37 am)

I have to ask: I "hear" us using the term psychopathic-- a  lot, as a descriptor of behavior, as if we're saying "bratty", or "ill-mannered", or even, "callous.". 

I am curious as to what we mean when we use that word to describe the characters? Do we really believe this is pathology? Or are we using the term as slang? 

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (September 1, 2014 7:38 am)

Liberty wrote:

The thing that bothered me about Sherlock when I was watching S2 was that he kept so much from John.  It wasn't even as if they instinctively understood each other and didn't need to talk.  John really didn't have a clue, not just about what was going on, but about what Sherlock was feeling, and by extension, who Sherlock was.   It started off being Sherlock's fault, but I think by S3 it's John's fault too, because he just doesn't want to know.     Maybe he prefers the darker, more dangerous, cold-hearted, psychopathic character that's in his imagination over the real man who cares so much he'll give his life for him, and he tries to cling to that view of Sherlock despite the evidence.  (But at the same time, thankfully, he does seem to recognise the good in Sherlock - the best and wisest man, the most human).  It's a little disturbing.   I think John is sometimes presented as being Sherlock's moral compass and he likes to believe himself such, but Sherlock is the more morally good. 

Apart from his lack of communication, I agree with all your examples, Zatoichi.  He's also the one who comforts Sarah in TBB, he's caring towards the house mistress after shouting at her in TRF, etc.  I think he's caring and un-psychopathic throughout.   Even if you look at his cases, it's not just about the challenge of finding the villain - it's about stopping other people being hurt. 

I do think there's a change in S3, but I agree that some of that (not all of it) is a natural extension of S2.  TRF shows just how far he will go to save people, so it shouldn't be too much of a surprise that he's so selfless in S3.  I think what struck me about S3 is that he should have come back as a hero, and yet people still see him as a sociopath (and he continues to try to create that image), including John, who should know better.  But doesn't want to know better.   It still bothers me that Sherlock doesn't seem to get any thanks for what he had to go through during the two years, and seems to spend the rest of S3 apologising for saving people's lives. 

Anyway, that was off topic too (sorry), but no, it doesn't make Sherlock psychopathic if he talks Moriarty into suicide, just clever.  His motivations are about saving people.  Claming that he's not a hero, that he's not an angel - all lies.   He's just prepared to use methods that other people wouldn't.
(Edit: sorry, I wrote this post before I saw your post above, Zatoichi)

Just adding: I think it's very fitting that Sherlock uses something that Moriarty used right back in the first episode (talking people into killing themselves).   Except Sherlock does it properly.  Moriarty (and the cabbie's) methods aren't very clever at all - just threatening violence to the person or their loved ones if they don't do what they're told.  How do you talk somebody into doing what you want, without threats?  You make them think it was their idea.  Which is what Sherlock does.

Just YES to all of this..