maryagrawatson wrote:

Liberty wrote:

I have to say again that I'm talking about my gut feelings about the scene and not about what I think was intended (I don't think the violence is meant to be as shocking as I'm finding it). 

This is precisely why I have such an issue with that reunion, that the authors wrote it for humour. Do they really think that this was funny?!

Again, I have been in John's shoes. If my brother-in-law had shown up after two years and said, "SURPRISE, I'm alive!" I'm pretty sure I would have been tempted to throttle him. But would I have done so? Most assuredly not. I think I had a better therapist than John did... I know John's got 50 billion issues all piled on top of each other, but the reunion scene, combined with his threatening to pummel Sherlock in HLV, made me stop liking the character because I don't trust him. I really don't think it's that far of a step from beating up Sherlock to deciding that it's okay to slap Mary once in a while or to shake his baby. I now see him as an abuser and that's an image that is going to be very hard to lose. What a sad direction in which to take this character.

Mary
 

Sorry for your loss, Mary. 
 
But I think it depends on your personality. I'm a really quiet person (the only person who's ever seen me furious is my husband), I keep cool in most situations, I can control my emotions (whatever they are) pretty well...

But like I said before in other threads, my husband suffered from a paranoia since childhood (Kretschmer's sensitive paranoia) which we only both learnt at the end of 2011 when he fell into deep depression and was then diagnosed by several psychiatrists. Within a few months, he tried to kill himself a dozen times, including locking himself in the car and cutting his veins in front of me and of our son, strangling himself in our room etc (let's say life's been hell for both of us during all those months) and finally took 150 betablockers and ran away from home. When the policemen found him two hours later, all the vital organs were severely damaged. He spent 3 weeks in intensive care (mostly in an artificial coma but he was conscious a couple of days, but entirely paralysed, and tracheotomia so unable to speak, he only moved his eyes to reply to my questions). A delicate surgery failed, his state got worse and doctors asked me to agree to stop all the machines to let him go peacefully (he was bound to die withing 48 hours anyway), so I watched him go.

Since then (it was two years ago), I've been seeing a therapist for PTSD (traumatic mourn) and guiltiness, my son (nearly 5 year old now) has seen a pedopsychiatrist, he stopped his whole development for an entire year meaning he completely stopped growing (i didn't even know it was possible!), he lost weight, he tried to stay a baby so he had a HUGE retardedness concerning psychomotricity (until last year he walked and ran like a 18 months old baby, couldn't even do a little jump or anything) and language (until a couple months ago, people hardly understand a few words of what he said). He is seeing specialists for that and has made big progress, but he still is very small for his age (people often asks me "So, he's turning three soon or something?" Nope, he's nearly 5....), and doesn't move or speak like he should at his age but well..

Anyway, all that to say that if my husband knocked at my door right now saying "Short version, not dead", first I wouldn't even be happy to see him (I know I should but i really couldn't!), after all he put us through, I would have to let all that pain and anger out of me, and the only way I would find to do so would be to hit him hard, again, and again, and again. I know that's what I would do. I know it doesn't sound right, but still... I know how angry and afraid I was the day he cut his veins. Of course, my first reaction once I managed to get him back inside the house was to call the emergency service, but then, even though he was losing a lot of blood, I slapped him hard while I'm truly not a violent person.

So even if it does look bad, I can understand John's reaction. The pain he must feel, the anger, the betrayal... And to make it worse, Sherlock is SO awkward. I know that's the way he is (and i'm sure he's pretty ill at ease during the "waiter" scene, and as he as no clue about "human nature", he doesn't even really seem to understand while John is not delighted to see him. Remember how he said to Mycroft "I think i'll surprise John... jump out of a cake" blablabla?), but that really wasn't the place and moment for humour, it only made John's feelings worse. Or when John is clearly hurt to know that Mycroft and Molly knew everything while he, Sherlock's supposed best friend, didn't (feels betrayed, above all because he thought Sherlock trusted him), I understand too. I even think he wasn't that bad to Sherlock. I would have been even worse to him if I were John.  

Don't get me wrong, I also feel bad for Sherlock during the whole scene. Because I kinda know at that moment why he didn't tell John, I have enough "distance" to understand John isn't the only one who has suffered, those two years must have been hell for Sherlock too (and I'm not only talking about serbian persecutors. I'm talking about being away from John, from London, from his life, having his name dragged through the mud, his career ruined...) BUT you don't think of all that when it happens, you act out of spontaneity. John is deeply hurt, and furious. Just screaming at Sherlock wouldn't have been enough. He had to make Sherlock pay for what he had put him through.

You don't act with your brain at that moment. You act with your fists. Thinking will come later.

Well, that's how I see things, at least.

To be honest, I've had more trouble with Molly's slaps.
 

Last edited by Punch me in the face (September 6, 2014 12:06 am)

Punch me in the face wrote:

maryagrawatson wrote:

Liberty wrote:

I have to say again that I'm talking about my gut feelings about the scene and not about what I think was intended (I don't think the violence is meant to be as shocking as I'm finding it). 

This is precisely why I have such an issue with that reunion, that the authors wrote it for humour. Do they really think that this was funny?!

Again, I have been in John's shoes. If my brother-in-law had shown up after two years and said, "SURPRISE, I'm alive!" I'm pretty sure I would have been tempted to throttle him. But would I have done so? Most assuredly not. I think I had a better therapist than John did... I know John's got 50 billion issues all piled on top of each other, but the reunion scene, combined with his threatening to pummel Sherlock in HLV, made me stop liking the character because I don't trust him. I really don't think it's that far of a step from beating up Sherlock to deciding that it's okay to slap Mary once in a while or to shake his baby. I now see him as an abuser and that's an image that is going to be very hard to lose. What a sad direction in which to take this character.

Mary
 

Sorry for your loss, Mary. 
 
But I think it depends on your personality. I'm a really quiet person (the only person who's ever seen me furious is my husband), I keep cool in most situations, I can control my emotions (whatever they are) pretty well...

But like I said before in other threads, my husband suffered from a paranoia since childhood (Kretschmer's sensitive paranoia) which we only both learnt at the end of 2011 when he fell into deep depression and was then diagnosed by several psychiatrists. Within a few months, he tried to kill himself a dozen times, including locking himself in the car and cutting his veins in front of me and of our son, strangling himself in our room etc (let's say life's been hell for both of us during all those months) and finally took 150 betablockers and ran away from home. When the policemen found him two hours later, all the vital organs were severely damaged. He spent 3 weeks in intensive care (mostly in an artificial coma but he was conscious a couple of days, but entirely paralysed, and tracheotomia so unable to speak, he only moved his eyes to reply to my questions). A delicate surgery failed, his state got worse and doctors asked me to agree to stop all the machines to let him go peacefully (he was bound to die withing 48 hours anyway), so I watched him go.

Since then (it was two years ago), I've been seeing a therapist for PTSD (traumatic mourn) and guiltiness, my son (nearly 5 year old now) has seen a pedopsychiatrist, he stopped his whole development for an entire year meaning he completely stopped growing (i didn't even know it was possible!), he lost weight, he tried to stay a baby so he had a HUGE retardedness concerning psychomotricity (until last year he walked and ran like a 18 months old baby, couldn't even do a little jump or anything) and language (until a couple months ago, people hardly understand a few words of what he said). He is seeing specialists for that and has made big progress, but he still is very small for his age (people often asks me "So, he's turning three soon or something?" Nope, he's nearly 5....), and doesn't move or speak like he should at his age but well..

Anyway, all that to say that if my husband knocked at my door right now saying "Short version, not dead", first I wouldn't even be happy to see him (I know I should but i really couldn't!), after all he put us through, I would have to let all that pain and anger out of me, and the only way I would find to do so would be to hit him hard, again, and again, and again. I know that's what I would do. I know it doesn't sound right, but still... I know how angry and afraid I was the day he cut his veins. Of course, my first reaction once I managed to get him back inside the house was to call the emergency service, but then, even though he was losing a lot of blood, I slapped him hard while I'm truly not a violent person.

So even if it does look bad, I can understand John's reaction. The pain he must feel, the anger, the betrayal... And to make it worse, Sherlock is SO awkward. I know that's the way he is (and i'm sure he's pretty ill at ease during the "waiter" scene, and as he as no clue about "human nature", he doesn't even really seem to understand while John is not delighted to see him. Remember how he said to Mycroft "I think i'll surprise John... jump out of a cake" blablabla?), but that really wasn't the place and moment for humour, it only made John's feelings worse. Or when John is clearly hurt to know that Mycroft and Molly knew everything while he, Sherlock's supposed best friend, didn't (feels betrayed, above all because he thought Sherlock trusted him), I understand too. I even think he wasn't that bad to Sherlock. I would have been even worse to him if I were John.  

Don't get me wrong, I also feel bad for Sherlock during the whole scene. Because I kinda know at that moment why he didn't tell John, I have enough "distance" to understand John isn't the only one who has suffered, those two years must have been hell for Sherlock too (and I'm not only talking about serbian persecutors. I'm talking about being away from John, from London, from his life, having his name dragged through the mud, his career ruined...) BUT you don't think of all that when it happens, you act out of spontaneity. John is deeply hurt, and furious. Just screaming at Sherlock wouldn't have been enough. He had to make Sherlock pay for what he had put him through.

You don't act with your brain at that moment. You act with your fists. Thinking will come later.

Well, that's how I see things, at least.

To be honest, I've had more trouble with Molly's slaps.
 

Punch me in the face-- my heart goes out to you and your son. 

Mine too.  What a terrible experience, Punch me in the face, and quite recent too.  I can't imagine ... I really feel for you.  I'm glad you and your son are getting help.

I can understand why you would identify with John in that situation.   I'm do try to see his side, honestly.  I think he has every right to feel angry, betrayed, etc., in that moment. 

Oh my dears.

((((((( All of you ))))))
 
Do you know how brave you people are not only to survive those sorts of things but to actually talk about them to complete strangers just like that? I admire you. I really do.

Now I truly understand why feelings have occasionally run high in this thread. Bless you all the more for never getting personal.

Liberty wrote:

I don't think John and Sherlock's relationship is meant to be an abusive one - I really don't.  So I wonder why they so perfectly captured an abusive relationship in those two scenes?  I don't know if it's a mistake (the writers didn't realise what they were showing!), or if it's deliberate.

I don't see how it would be deliberate, either. I'm afraid it's just thoughtlessness on the part of the writers. Just like I couldn't see for the longest time where you and others who felt very uncomfortable about that scene were coming from, I believe if the writers/director/actors have themselves never been exposed to such experiences in real life they wouldn't realise what it looks like to someone who has.

It's probably a bit like making Sherlock's supposed psychiatric condition into a running joke. It may seem funny if you've never had to worry about such things but to people with real mental health problems and their families it may seem very thoughtless and insensitive. Even if the condition itself is fictional.

As for John's comment about "no longer needing morphine", I'm afraid that falls into the same category. I'm sure it is meant as comic relief. But it is thoughtless and insensitive if you look at it from the domestic violence point of view, too.

Liberty wrote:

Both John and Mary (a doctor and a nurse who are supposed to care deeply for him) leave him to get up the stairs by himself - I find that shocking in itself, and he barely makes it, swaying at the top.  

It is shocking, really. At first I didn't get it, I thought Sherlock had just let the others get ahead for some secret purpose.

Well, Mary for one doesn't know at that moment whether Sherlock is still on her side or not. So she really has no reason to be solicitous towards him until she finds out.

The fact that John doesn't seem to notice it - I truly believe he doesn't notice it, not that he notices but doesn't care - simply speaks volumes as to his confusion at that moment.

But Sherlock's pride, which we discussed earlier in this thread, may also be a big point. We don't know how they got from Leinster Gardens to Baker Street and how well Sherlock could have hidden just how bad and weak he was feeling, but he obviously made a big effort to.

Remember what he says to Mrs Hudson in 221b when she's all surprised at them turning up so suddenly: "Mr and Mrs Watson are going to have a domestic, and fairly quickly I hope, because we've got work to do." Not "because I really don't know how long I can hold out."  He really did everything in his power to divert everybody's attention from the fact that he was inwardly bleeding to death at that point, just because he thought (as he plainly did) that other things mattered more.

Heck, he fooled me. When I was watching HLV for the first time, I had a vague feeling that there was something wrong with him but I didn't realise the true extent of the danger he was in until the paramedics arrived. And I was just watching my favourite TV show, not being distracted by the revelation that the person I was married to was a liar and assassin.

So maybe that makes it easier to understand John's lack of attention and empathy.

Last edited by La Jolie (September 6, 2014 9:03 pm)

The confontation at Baker Street is one of those scenes I can´t watch rationally because it hits too close to home..(lost 3 l of blood, emergency op, ICU.. happy memories.) BC plays it really well except for the breath that comes much harder when you´re close to collapsing.. so my first reaction to that scene was a great disappointment in John that he didn´t notice as a doctor and friend and even threatened him. But of course you´re right La Jolie, neither does John have any personal experiences that make him sensitive to the symptoms nor does he sit in front of a TV and just takes in everything he sees.. he is in a crisis, too.

silverblaze wrote:

Something else: Sherlock called the ambulance when they were walking back. So John and Mary knew the paramedics were coming and they were just making use of the time in between. All of this, Sherlock arranged and controlled. 

I don´t think John and Mary noticed he called the ambulance, he was walking behind them and I´m quite sure he only told them about it at the end of their conversation..? (Please correct me if I´m wrong..)

Last edited by Zatoichi (September 6, 2014 9:23 pm)

@ Liberty, I'm kinda thinking that John subsconsiously blames Sherlock, and I think he still hasn't really forgiven him, either-- though he might really want to-- I'm not sure that he actually has been able to. 

It must be difficult to watch the scene knowing what it feels like.  I find it bad enough without knowing.  (Although I do have heart disease, and some of it is familiar, particularly the pain and the fear of not being there to protect somebody - in my case, my child.  But I've never had so damaged a body, thankfully. I'm sorry that you have.).  They really do like Sherlock to go through extremes of suffering, don't they?   It would be easier if there was some support from John, apart from the little bit at the end of the scene.  So much for John being the doctor, the one who saves lives, when he can watch Sherlock breaking and dying in front of him and not do anything. (But then, I have issues with that wedding speech anyway ). 

Raven, he does say he forgives him, but in his blog entry he's still struggling to forgive him, even after knowing why he did it.  Then there's the strange period leading into the wedding, the unexpected pregnancy, and shortly after that his whole world gets turned upside down again.    Maybe he's just instinctively blaming Sherlock by default.   If it was Sherlock who made him feel so bad last time, then it must be Sherlock this time. 

I was thinking about how John so often in the past doesn't know what's going on with Sherlock and doesn't try to.   And he destroys Mary's memory stick.  He'd prefer not to know the truth if it's something he's not happy with.   So in this scene, Sherlock is forcing him to know, when perhaps, he would have preferred not to.    Sherlock could have promised Mary to keep quiet, kept her secret, and they could have continued as normal, and John could have been happy.  (Of course, John should notice that Sherlock is risking so much that it must be really, really important that John knows ... but I'm trying to see it from John's point of view for now).  After all, Sherlock has been wonderful at keeping secrets and making John live in ignorance up until now. 

(Actually, that might have been a viable scenario.   Mary could see Sherlock as her ally, and John and the baby would be protected by both of them.  The fact that Sherlock doesn't go for it, and in fact claws back from death to avoid it, makes me think that there's still something we don't know about Mary, something that Sherlock either knows or senses). 

I do think it's unfair that John is blamed for choosing Mary.  John's already angry with Sherlock by that point, so it's not what triggers it, but I can see why it frustrates John.   (I think that at that point, Sherlock needs to say what's necessary to make them reconcile and to show Mary that they are on her side, because John's in danger.  But again, trying to see it from John's point of view).  It is completely unfair - I don't think John knew at any conscious level that Mary was a killer, and she did have attractive, non-psychopathic qualities that we saw in TEH and TSOT.  (And I think that she chose him, not the other way around ... but perhaps Sherlock is not letting her know that he knows that). 

La Jolie wrote:

Liberty wrote:

He does notice it (or he wouldn't make the morphine comment).

But isn't that a direct reaction to Sherlock mentioning morphine to Mrs Hudson only seconds before? That wasn't entirely serious so John just chimed in, not taking the matter seriously either.

But he knows Sherlock is on a morphine pump in hospital.   Sherlock appears to have disconnected it, so has no pain relief.  And he's been moving about a lot, particularly getting up stairs, whereas in hospital he was using the motorised bed to sit up.  He's bound to be a in a lot of pain.  Yes, I think John mentions morphine because Sherlock does, but the fact that he mentions it shows that he's aware of Sherlock's suffering - he just doesn't seem to care at that point.  (And saying that Sherlock won't need morphine, does give away that he knows he needs it now).

Liberty wrote:

I was thinking about how John so often in the past doesn't know what's going on with Sherlock and doesn't try to.   And he destroys Mary's memory stick.  He'd prefer not to know the truth if it's something he's not happy with.   So in this scene, Sherlock is forcing him to know, when perhaps, he would have preferred not to.    Sherlock could have promised Mary to keep quiet, kept her secret, and they could have continued as normal, and John could have been happy. 

Hmm... John not knowing what Sherlock is up to a lot of the time is one of the cornerstones of ACD canon, actually. So in the BBC, they could neither have John be in on all of Sherlock's secrets nor him asking nosy questions all the time, both would have been out of character. So I think we just have to accept it that John doesn't ask a lot of questions other people would ask. In ACD, the simple explanation is John's complete and unshakeable trust in Sherlock's judgement in all situations. In the BBC version, where that trust has been shaken more than once, it becomes harder to understand. But I see how they couldn't deviate from that original pattern. The stories wouldn't work otherwise.

As for the revelation about Mary, let's not forget the John was there at Leinster Gardens and heard it all, and that he wasn't "tricked" into it. It was a very deliberate arrangement. Sherlock contacted him, and he came and sat there in the shadows, certainly knowing or guessing that there was something terribly wrong about Mary that he was going to find out. He wouldn't have agreed to that arrangement if all he wanted was to be left in blessed ignorance. Maybe he got more than he bargained for but he took that risk. It wasn't forced on him.

What I mean is that Sherlock could have not done any of it: not absconded from hospital, and just claimed to have not known who the assassin was.  It's only when John is searching for Sherlock that he starts to get suspicious (and looks at Mary's perfume).   By that time, it's too late to go back and unknow.  If Sherlock had stayed put in hospital though, John wouldn't have guessed and could have continued with his life. 

I know what you're saying about John's ignorance fitting with canon.  It's even more so in the stories, because we're directly shown sometimes what Sherlock thinks and does, so don't need to hear it through John, the way we do in the books, usually.  But on top of that, I do think John tends to avoid unpleasant truths.  He does burn the memory stick, after all.  Possibly.  Which suggests to me that he might have preferred not to know anything about Mary at all.

Btw, in this context, the "John Watson is in danger" thing puzzles me to no end. What danger does that refer to? The general danger of being married to a trained killer, in the sense that Mary might one day turn her gun on him for whatever reason? Or the danger that Mary's part might be exposed and therefore both their lives and happiness ruined?

I don't see where people get the idea that being the love of Mary's life (which he obviously is, given the lengths she's prepared to go to to keep him) is somehow dangerous in itself just because she used to make a living as a professional killer. It is a disquieting kind of job, of course, but does that automatically make Mary (who's retired from it, after all, and truly wanted to leave it all behind) unpredictably dangerous even to the people she loves? The more I think about it the less do I believe that the "psychopath" label fits her at all.

It puzzles me too. 
- Sherlock seems to be protecting John from Mary (he comes back from the dead to do that). 
- He seems to believe that John needs to know Mary is an assassin and that he needs to continue the relationship with her (Sherlock risks his life to achieve that). 
- After that, he seems to feel safe to leave John alone with Mary (he goes off to his death ... for goodness sake, maybe there is getting to be a little too much Sherlock/death tension when we know that he's got to live for another series, but anyway ...). 
But why? I don't really understand any of that, without there being something that we don't yet know but Sherlock does.

We've established that John can't keep a secret.  He shows everything in his face!  So why land him with a huge, dangerous secret?   If the worry is that Mary might be exposed - well, that's more likely if John knows than if he doesn't.  What terrible thing would have happened if Sherlock hadn't absconded from hospital and set up the confrontation?  Sherlock might still have been at some risk from Mary, but he doesn't come back to save himself, so that's not it.  Why would John be at massively more risk if Sherlock kept quiet? 

Last edited by Liberty (September 7, 2014 7:15 pm)

About the ambulance thing, I just find it hard to imagine that three people can walk together, one is calling the ambulance and the other two don't notice. But he could have been behind them a bit so maybe it's possible. 

The memory stick irritates me too. I kinda hope that John had made a copy before that. I mean how can you not want to know? Maybe there's a little more to it. 

Liberty wrote:

I don't think John and Sherlock's relationship is meant to be an abusive one - I really don't.  So I wonder why they so perfectly captured an abusive relationship in those two scenes?  I don't know if it's a mistake (the writers didn't realise what they were showing!), or if it's deliberate.  Some of it is down to the great acting in those scenes.  I know the restaurants scenes are meant to be funny, but the actors don't trivialise it at all. 

The Baker Street scene is made worse because Sherlock is doing it all for John, and John really does know how much he is suffering.  (In TEH, John doesn't know that Sherlock has been brutally beaten hours ago.  But in HLV, he knows exactly what Sherlock has been through, and how much at risk he is).  Both John and Mary (a doctor and a nurse who are supposed to care deeply for him) leave him to get up the stairs by himself - I find that shocking in itself, and he barely makes it, swaying at the top.   In TEH, Sherlock persists because he wants to make it up to John, but in HLV he persists because he has to, for John's sake.   I do actually feel for John because the relation about Mary must have been so devastating, but he has no reason at all to threaten Sherlock. 
 

If John is indeed such an ostrich as it was suggested above then his anger at Sherlock in the baker Street scene could be interpreted as a typical "shoot the messenger" behaviour:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_the_messenger

I don´t want to hear an unpleasant news? I will attack the person who brought it to me as if he/she was the cause of my distress.

Apparently, this behaviour must be quite frequent if it earned a special name for itself.

As to John´s and Mary´s shocking disinterest about Sherlock´s condition - well, John is feeling pity for himself and blames Sherlock for this Mary disaster so he probably deliberately ignores him. Mary, on the other hand, must be incredibly angry that Sherlock outed her well guarded secret, so she doesn´t care one bit if Sherlock lives or dies. They both overlook his symptoms because honestly, they both hate him in that moment.

Liberty said:
It puzzles me too. 
- Sherlock seems to be protecting John from Mary (he comes back from the dead to do that). 
- He seems to believe that John needs to know Mary is an assassin and that he needs to continue the relationship with her (Sherlock risks his life to achieve that). 
- After that, he seems to feel safe to leave John alone with Mary (he goes off to his death ... for goodness sake, maybe there is getting to be a little too much Sherlock/death tension when we know that he's got to live for another series, but anyway ...). 
But why? I don't really understand any of that, without there being something that we don't yet know but Sherlock does.

We've established that John can't keep a secret.  He shows everything in his face!  So why land him with a huge, dangerous secret?   If the worry is that Mary might be exposed - well, that's more likely if John knows than if he doesn't.  What terrible thing would have happened if Sherlock hadn't absconded from hospital and set up the confrontation?  Sherlock might still have been at some risk from Mary, but he doesn't come back to save himself, so that's not it.  Why would John be at massively more risk if Sherlock kept quiet?

Well, imagine that Mary is a venomous nake, John is a blind man playing with that snake as if it was just a harmless piece of rope and Sherlock is a magician who suddenly restores John´s sight. Surely, John is safer now that he can see the true nature of his plaything and would be more careful in handling it? If he continued to play with a snake in a careless manner, it is possible he would be bitten to death in no time.