BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 / Not so different?

**Posted by SherlocklivesinOH** July 7, 2014 1:06 am

Sherlock says in his Best Man speech that John "saved" him.

Which presumably means John has made him a "better" person somehow - perhaps better at getting along with people? Better-adjusted in some ways?

The thing is...I don't see John having a lot to offer in that area. He seems to have very similar "demons" to Sherlock's:

- not good with emotions - the only one we really see him express is anger, and he lashes out with it.

- not that good with relationships, at least, they don't last until Mary (though maybe this is at least partly BECAUSE of Sherlock)

- his motivation for being involved in Sherlock's work is essentially the same as Sherlock's - the excitement - far more than caring about people. That was never clearer to me than in TEH where he went with Sherlock to the underground. He was still mad at Sherlock, so if he would still go then, it showed how addicted he was to the adventure.

I don't see him as that caring, I guess because he always seems P.O. at everyone.

And I actually think that, before he and Sherlock met, in some ways, Sherlock was functioning better, because he had a purpose in life: his work. If he had that, he had something to interest him. Whereas John was drifting and had nothing. Sherlock, in that sense, saved him.

John seems like he's the more alone of the two, in a strange way, at least as of Season 3. He doesn't seem to have friends or family besides Sherlock (is he estranged from his whole family in canon, or is that the fanfic I've read?)

And, for all Sherlock talked about John being his only friend, and being better-off alone, he had a HUGE number of people come through for him to help him fake his suicide. He may not consider them all close friends as he does John, but he had to trust them in a big way to use them in that plan. I can see how that plan would have made the deception worse for John - Sherlock was making the excuse of not trusting everybody, but it seems like there he trusted everyone BUT John.

In fact, I think the series makes pretty much everyone alone, bad with emotions, and everything else I've been listing here. Mycroft's "caring is not an advantage," seems to be a theme.

And when John yelled, "Is everyone I've never met a psychopath?" he was kind of speaking for the viewer, in a way, because they've made pretty much everyone we've "met" - everyone in the series - not a pyschopath, I know we use that word too loosely - but everyone has issues like these.

Frankly, it's started to depress me. I used to think of Sherlock Holmes as more light-hearted than this - though maybe that's a glossing-over of some of the things that go on in canon.

But part of the problem for me is that Sherlock Holmes ceases to seem ecccentric.

Last edited by SherlocklivesinOH (July 7, 2014 1:16 am)

**Posted by saturnR** July 7, 2014 3:54 am

If John is changing Sherlock in whatever small way then Sherlock would also be changing John in some small way coz it's a two way relationship. The show is not that depressing remember it starts off with Sherlock being smacked by Molly = best scene ever!

Last edited by saturnR (July 7, 2014 12:39 pm)

**Posted by A lovely light** July 11, 2014 7:02 pm

The only thing John is not good with emotion is putting them into words - he seems very scared for looking ridiculous and being hurt and laughed at when he is vulnerable. Perhaps it comes from his military life (i had a friend who worked in the technical military and he and all his camarades were very keen to don't show any vulnerability, to look always the alfa-men, always strong, perhaps it comes from living in a small place and in dangerous/ stressfull situations with loads of other alfa-men - it was a very difficult relationship to deal with, i can tell you. I was then also too young to understand some things and to react appropriate).

He deeply cares not only for Sherlock, but also for Molly, for Ms Hudson for example. He feels the feelings and the emotional state of the others while Sherlock gets carried away (for example in HOB or in TRF) and knows when the other may get hurt, he is very sensible at that. He is even very sad to hear about the still-born child in ASIP.

When we meet John, he is already after the war adjusting to normality once again, we don't know how it was before that. He still go out with his friends (or mates better said), tries to have girlfriends and relationships.

As with relationships, it took to find the right person for him. Someone who would understand his demons, his nightmares and his ways to cope with them. It is not easy to fall in love with someone with PTSD, i suppose - they have anger issues, trust issues, nightmares, not quite funny, you have to be a very bright or strong personality to stay in such a relationship i think. For loads of people coming back from the war was difficult to find someone who can understand their experiences so they tend to feel alone, even when they have family or mates.

How he saved Sherlock? That could be a veeeeeeery long discusion. But he brings Sherlock into reality, connect him to the others, teach him about their feelings and how to behave and give him a moral way of life and thinking (while Sherlock is more interested about the game and thinking emotion free). He gives Sherlock another point of view about life, quite different from what Sherlock experienced or was interested in.

But yeah, the saving was reciprocal, Sherlock saved him also from a life withoud drive.

I think that Sherlock is nothing depressing but the opposite! I think the majority of us wish for a deep friendship like the one between Sherlock and John, a friendship who gets beyond words and where each one would do anything for the other. Because this kind of friendship is much more seldom than love relationships amd much more selfless.

What i like about this series is how multi-layered the personalities of both Sherlock and John are. They are not the stereotypical hero-normal person. There is white, and black, and grey, and colour. Loads to think about, loads unspoken.

**Posted by tobeornot221b** July 11, 2014 7:44 pm

saturnR wrote:
Sherlock being smacked by Molly = best scene ever!

Best scene ever? Just for the smacking? Why would you say that? I don't like people smacking each other - for whatever reason. This scene I consider just vital in preparation and in foresight of the mind palace scene in HLV. Remembering Molly smacking him helps Sherlock "focus" - and survive. The only justification for me.

**Posted by saturnR** July 11, 2014 10:36 pm

tobeornot221b wrote:
Best scene ever? Just for the smacking? Why would you say that?

It's not just the smacking, it's what she says to him afterwards as well. She's treating him like a little kid, which I found hilarious. You can hear the care & the exasperation & you know that it's not done out of spite.

**Posted by maryagrawatson** July 12, 2014 4:14 am

saturnR wrote:
It's not just the smacking, it's what she says to him afterwards as well. She's treating him like a little kid, which I found hilarious. You can hear the care & the exasperation & you know that it's not done out of spite.

I disagree with the slapping, although I get where it's coming from, but I understand what it is you like about it. Gone is the Molly who fawns over Sherlock. In her place, is a confident friend who now sees Sherlock as an ordinary man with extraordinary gifts.

This scene combined with the mention of Sherlock using her bedroom as a bolt hole and Sherlock making a sex joke (putting up shelves) in TEH confirm to me the fan fiction trope that Molly took Sherlock in for a period of time after the fall and that they got to know each other really well.

Mary

**Posted by besleybean** July 13, 2014 6:01 pm

How on Earth was the shelves thing a sex joke?

**Posted by Harriet** July 13, 2014 6:19 pm

Well, it seems quite a few people use that phrase also as a slang expression, euphemism, whatever for having sex.

**Posted by besleybean** July 13, 2014 6:47 pm

Not in England, that I'm aware of.
He was making a detective joke.

**Posted by Harriet** July 13, 2014 6:48 pm

You can do your own research, as I did. I found some British references.

**Posted by besleybean** July 13, 2014 6:51 pm

Well I am English!
He was clearly being funny that no he wasn't helping a guy solve a crime, he was helping with something else which you would never associate Sherlock with.
I doubt he would be so crass with Molly.

**Posted by maryagrawatson** July 13, 2014 6:55 pm

It was a British friend who told me that where she comes from, putting up shelves is a euphemism for having sex, and usually gay sex. A little Googling told me she wasn't pulling my leg.

Mary

**Posted by Harriet** July 13, 2014 6:56 pm

All I said, bb, was that some British people use it that way. If you don't, fine.

Last edited by Harriet (July 13, 2014 6:57 pm)

**Posted by besleybean** July 13, 2014 7:08 pm

This is not how Sherlock is using it.
And sex as a favour?!

**Posted by maryagrawatson** July 13, 2014 7:10 pm

besleybean wrote:
I doubt he would be so crass with Molly.

Either he and Molly are as close as I think they became between series 2 and 3, or the writers were making another joke like at the end of TGG where Sherlock responds innocently to a sexual euphemism (gun in your pocket or are you happy to see me?) to be funny.

Mary

**Posted by besleybean** July 13, 2014 7:11 pm

But he ddin't initiate a gay joke.

**Posted by Schmiezi** July 13, 2014 7:58 pm

besleybean wrote:
But he ddin't initiate a gay joke.

Please tell me how you know that for sure.

(I am really interested of your line of argument here. How did you come to your conclusion?)

**Posted by besleybean** July 13, 2014 8:02 pm

Because Moriarty initiated it...that's what I meant!
Do people really think Sherlock is the kind of guy to make that sort of joke with Molly?!

**Posted by maryagrawatson** July 13, 2014 9:33 pm

besleybean wrote:
Because Moriarty initiated it...that's what I meant!
Do people really think Sherlock is the kind of guy to make that sort of joke with Molly?!

There's really two ways to look at that scene.

The most probable is that the writers are going the Sherlock is so innocent when it comes to such double entendres. He thinks he's telling Molly that he helped a guy put up shelves (which is funny in its own right) and Molly smirks at that image as well as the other image the phrase conjures up.

The other way to look at the scene is that Molly and Sherlock have gotten a lot closer since the Fall (for which there is plenty of evidence peppered throughout series 3) and Sherlock knew exactly what he was saying in the stairwell. I like this interpretation because it's funny and it goes a long way to showing the evolution of their relationship. This line, if he means it as the euphemism, is just a friend teasing another friend. Considering Sherlock's crass comments about Molly's mouth and breasts in SIB, I really don't think this interpretation is entirely improbable.

Mary

**Posted by besleybean** July 13, 2014 9:37 pm

Except that just wasn't the point of the joke.
Sherlock was making fun of the 'crime' angle.
He wasn't joking about her breasts and mouth, he was being entirely serious.

Last edited by besleybean (July 13, 2014 9:37 pm)