BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 / a question to those who dislike mary

**Posted by NatureNoHumansNo** April 12, 2014 2:40 pm

well, two questions, actually.
Is the problem with her bound to the fact that she appears in John's life during Sherlock's absence (it's not the case in the canon)? Do you thinkyou would accept he more easily if she'd met john before?

Thanks.

**Posted by gently69** April 12, 2014 2:47 pm

For me it is what she DID. We had this discussion in some other threads already. Makes no difference to me when she stepped into John's life. The way she acted is the decisive factor.

**Posted by SolarSystem** April 12, 2014 4:40 pm

I agree with gently, and furthermore I think that in the long-run three is just too uneven a number. Even if she hadn't done what she did, to me BBC Sherlock works best with Sherlock and John in the centre of it. Of course you could have Mary in the background without seeing much of her, but then what would be the point of introducing her in the first place?
The show works best (for me) with John and Sherlock living together in 221B - and with Mary around that just doesn't happen. So even if she were a 'nice girl' she'd still be some kind of disturbing factor.

**Posted by gently69** April 12, 2014 4:56 pm

Now I agree with you, Solar. And for me it hasn't anything to do with Johnlock. A third person just doesn't fit.

**Posted by Harriet** April 12, 2014 6:16 pm

To me it doesn't matter at all either. I even liked her for a while until I realised what I came to think of as the sad truth now.

**Posted by Sherlock Holmes** April 12, 2014 10:30 pm

It doesn't bother me that she is involved in John and Sherlock's life. I thought their dynamic worked very well in the first two episodes and she came across as the type of person who wouldn't interfere in their friendship and who would actively encourage John to go out and spend time with Sherlock and solve cases etc. If it hadn't been for her dark past/secret and then what happened in His Last Vow, I can honestly believe that they would have all had a very happy life together! But yeah...Steven Moffat doesn't do happy lives xD

**Posted by SusiGo** April 13, 2014 12:00 am

I agree with what the others said. Although I am a Johnlocker and prefer to have them (as most of the time in canon) alone in 221B, I was surprised by how much I liked Mary in episode 1 and 2. But to me what she does in HLV is unforgiveable (not only shooting Sherlock but her whole behaviour afterwards) and I frankly do not believe the "surgery" explanation.

Last edited by SusiGo (April 14, 2014 12:09 pm)

**Posted by James Norrington** April 13, 2014 12:46 am

When she first attended, I did like her and I was all happy for John for finding her and I loved her reaction to Sherlock in TEH, but as soon as we had to deal with her past and find out who she really was I soon lost interest in her and that's still it today. I am not interested to find out about Mary at all because I just don't care about her, as sad as it is. When watching Sherlock, I want to find out a lot about Sherlock and a lot about John and their way to deal with whatever thrown at them (to quote Cabin Pressure here) and I do (except for Moriarty, who's a very different person to Mary) not need another character that suddenly seems to be important. It's just that I do not want to learn more about her, as sad as it sounds but she does not mean anything to me.
It's got nothing to do when she appears in the story and I am not a Johnlocker at all but I'm just not interested in her and that's a fact. I do not dislike her but I do not care about Mary at all.

**Posted by besleybean** April 13, 2014 7:15 am

Thank you James, you have given me much food for thought.
I have always had mixed feelings about Mary.
I knew she had to 'done', because it's Canon.
I presumed that Mark and Steven would want to update her and make her a stronger, female character.
It could be seen that they also deceided to ally her to Sherlock, possibly in an attempt to make her more aceeptable.
I am on board with the plan at the moment and am really waiting to see what S4 brings...

**Posted by Zatoichi** April 13, 2014 1:59 pm

My feelings about Mary have nothing to do with the timing.. I liked her when she first appeared on the screen, and I also liked the idea of John finally having the partner he was looking for all through S1 and 2.

For me it already changed during TEH and especially during TSoT.. I didn´t like the way she was depicted. I´m all in for strong female characters, and yes it´s all fine that she´s not intimidated by the two of them. But it´s not just that she´s strong, intelligent and capable, for me it seemed like suddenly she takes the lead. She sees through them, mocks them (in a friendly way, I´ll give her that), uses the same psychology on them I use on my kids when she sends them out to play, erm to solve a case.. suddenly Sherlock stutters while she remembers the correct numbers, she yells at him to "SOLVE IT!!!" and all this talk about them having parenting experiences because of Sherlock.. it made me cringe. Yes, both the guys might have their issues and don´t always act mature, but to see them treated like children by a character I barely know and who barely knows them felt so wrong to me..

And don´t get me started about HLV!

If you ask how I could have accepted her more easily.. if she had been a supporting character instead of a third lead, if she hadn´t acted like the grown-up or even mother of the trio, and if she hadn´t shot Sherlock.. Yes, I guess then I´d have been fine with Mary.

**Posted by tobeornot221b** April 13, 2014 3:15 pm

Zatoichi wrote:
If you ask how I could have accepted her more easily.. if she had been a supporting character instead of a third lead, if she hadn´t acted like the grown-up or even mother of the trio, and if she hadn´t shot Sherlock...

Quite right, Zatoichi.
And even more: Mothers don't shoot their kids. This isn't done!

**Posted by besleybean** April 13, 2014 3:26 pm

Possibly this is the wrong thread.
But I have thought of another way, things could kind of work out...
What if Mary gets kicked out of the country? This would be possible, if she is in the UK on false passport etc..
I don't know the legal status of baby Watson(if it is a baby Watson), but it would presumably be decided she would be better off with Mum.
But the Watsons would be able to meet up and holiday together etc, but mainly it would just be Sherlock and John again.

**Posted by Harriet** April 14, 2014 8:24 am

So, NNHO, what do our answers tell you now?

**Posted by NatureNoHumansNo** April 14, 2014 9:25 am

Well, i've been reading them all and i understand everyone's point of view.
i'm not stuck on johnlock ( well, il like seeing them together, but it's not sinequanon to me ), so i'm ok with every developpement, as long as the episodes keep being as good as they've always been. So, i did not dislike Mary, even with the shot. I'm just curious to see how the writers will cope with her past and her future with watson in the next serie.
Just a question for SusiGo, y'ou said : "I frankly do not believe the "surgery" explanation", I would like to know why tou dont believe it and what do you believe instead?

( once again, sorry for my awful english)

**Posted by Lue4028** April 16, 2014 9:44 pm

Ok, I get it, you know. Mary isn't exactly popular. But think all the directions they could take her in. Eventually John will return to baker street so I'm kind of excited. What if they kill her off like in the canon? This won't happen soon necessarily but think of all the drama! And aftermath! John being comforted by Sherlock. John and Sherlock raising the kid. Sherlock would have progeny!! The possibilities are endless! +goes and takes a chill pill+
So, yeah, I think I'm the only one who thinks timing matters. Everybody is pro John and Sherlock because that is the center of the show established from the begining. Maybe people would defend Mary more if half as much emphasis had been placed on her and John's romance.

**Posted by besleybean** April 16, 2014 9:45 pm

They got married...that's canon.

**Posted by TeeJay** April 17, 2014 6:50 am

Mary has split the fandom in some kind of way, and I think a lot of the fans are as tired of the "is she a good person or not?" debate as they are of the friction that it's caused in the fandom. I myself am quite conflicted about Mary. I both want to like and dislike her, and I haven't fully made up my mind yet. But I can definitely say I'm sympathetic towards her because I can understand her actions. To me that matters more than whether something someone did is interpreted as good or bad.

Interestingly, it seems that (at least over on Tumblr), there's another kind of fandom war going on right now. I haven't seen it, but apparently someone made a gifset where they photoshopped Mary into a scene from the Fargo pilot so that it looks like Martin (as John) is killing Mary. Most of the Mary-hating part of the fandom thinks it's cool, the more tolerant part is ranting on about how that's disrepectful and taking things out of proportion.

I would tend to agree with the latter, but I don't have very strong feelings about it. I'm not in favour of the idea of such a gifset, but I also don't think creative thinking should be forbidden. In the end, it's all fiction. The argument of "what would Martin and Amanda think if they saw this" doesn't count in my eyes, because we're looking at characters and not real people here. Characters on TV get killed off all the time to serve a story. If you can't separate between a character and an actor, then my personal opinion is that you should try to reevaluate your way of thinking.

If I'm getting a little off piste here, my apologies.

**Posted by besleybean** April 17, 2014 7:33 am

No apology necessary, I agree with you.

**Posted by Thinbeard** July 6, 2014 2:35 pm

I don't like Mary because I don't like Mary. She was more than willing to kill Sherlock to stop John from knowing who she really is. The baby name thing. All of it. I've tried writing a couple of times and I see her as a plot problem. SusiGo said she didn't believe the "surgery" bit. Maybe what she meant was she's not "buying it" and neither am I. In fact, I'm not buying very much of her and John's relationship at all. This will be solved by Mary's death.

**Posted by tonnaree** July 6, 2014 4:01 pm

She shot Sherlock. Full stop.