BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 / My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

**Posted by SolarSystem** June 4, 2014 9:32 am

I think Mary knew exactly that Sherlock wouldn't kill her.

**Posted by LoveIsAViciousMotivator** June 4, 2014 12:59 pm

SolarSystem wrote:
I think Mary knew exactly that Sherlock wouldn't kill her.

How do you know that?

I watched that entire scene over and over again, especially the beginning. Mary had every right to think that Sherlock was going to pull something. I mean he was hiding himself from everyone and she was trying to find him. What was he doing? Then all of sudden, she was being led to the empty houses? Mary knows of her actions beforehand. She probably thought Sherlock was going to pay her back in kind.

Mary likes Sherlock and during that hallway scene, she had plenty of opportunities to kill Sherlock. When he appeared behind her, she could have shot him then, but what does she do? She tries to explain to him that she didn't want John to know because it would break him. She tells Sherlock to understand and tells him to not press the matter further for John's sake as well as his. If Mary was this evil person people keep claiming that she is, why bother? Just shoot him. Sherlock was vulnerable and couldn't do anything. Could it be? Could it be Mary doesn't want to kill Sherlock? Maybe Mary actually does like Sherlock and doesn't hate him.

Last edited by LoveIsAViciousMotivator (June 4, 2014 1:01 pm)

**Posted by tonnaree** June 4, 2014 1:06 pm

LoveIsAViciousMotivator wrote:
SolarSystem wrote:
I think Mary knew exactly that Sherlock wouldn't kill her.
How do you know that?

I watched that entire scene over and over again, especially the beginning. Mary had every right to think that Sherlock was going to pull something. I mean he was hiding himself from everyone and she was trying to find him. What was he doing? Then all of sudden, she was being led to the empty houses? Mary knows of her actions beforehand. She probably thought Sherlock was going to pay her back in kind.

Mary likes Sherlock and during that hallway scene, she had plenty of opportunities to kill Sherlock. When he appeared behind her, she could have shot him then, but what does she do? She tries to explain to him that she didn't want John to know because it would break him. She tells Sherlock to understand and tells him to not press the matter further for John's sake as well as his. If Mary was this evil person people keep claiming that she is, why bother? Just shoot him. Sherlock was vulnerable and couldn't do anything. Could it be? Could it be Mary doesn't want to kill Sherlock? Maybe Mary actually does like Sherlock and doesn't hate him.

I believe that Mary knows Sherlock would not do that to John. Sherlock knows John loves Mary and he would not outright harm her without John knowing the truth. She's afraid of being exposed, not killed.

Watching that scene I really don't see a lot of fear in Mary at all.
Sherlock's "How good a shot are you"
Her arrogant "How badly do you want to find out" as she cocks her weapon made me shudder.

Last edited by tonnaree (June 4, 2014 1:06 pm)

**Posted by SusiGo** June 4, 2014 1:23 pm

To me she is cold (until she notices John) and calculating in this scene. There is no hint of the sympathy she showed in TEH and TSoT. I see no way of turning her into the victim. And the moment she kicks the coin and makes Sherlock pick it up - just look at her face.
(But we have been over all this more than once)

**Posted by nakahara** June 4, 2014 1:46 pm

The body language and the facial expression of Mary in that scene speaks of determination to get rid of unwanted witness and of contempt for Sherlock, certainly not of fear. Mary wants to stop Sherlock before he speaks with John, she is certainly not trying to defend herself from him.

Remember, Sherlock didn´t lure Mary into the empty house, she was searching for him and trying to reach him on her own. She was well prepared to face and overcome any barrier standing in her path. Ruthlessly.

And why would she, a cold-blooded, well-trained, level-headed murderer for hire be in panic over some man who let himself be shot like a sacrificial lamb last time, without any effort to defend himself - the man who never before hurt somebody (with the sole exception of an agent who hit his landlandy into her face)? Sherlock is an intellectual type, he almost never solves his problems with violence and Mary certainly didn´t await that he sudenly starts killing people now.

**Posted by SusiGo** June 4, 2014 1:52 pm

Yes to all that.

**Posted by maryagrawatson** June 4, 2014 2:25 pm

I rewatched parts of HLV last night with Mary and Sherlock's relationship in mind and had a thought. I'm just playing devil's advocate here because I firmly believe that Sherlock is hatching a plan to take down Mary in season 4. But...

Mary is a well-trained operative, which would involve a lot of mental conditioning. Perhaps all of this with Sherlock is instinctual: I'm under threat, I must kill, even if I love him and he's my friend. But Sherlock surprises her by giving her an other option. Could you be so conditioned that the thought of another option have never occurred to her?

Mary

**Posted by LoveIsAViciousMotivator** June 4, 2014 2:29 pm

nakahara wrote:
The body language and the facial expression of Mary in that scene speaks of determination to get rid of unwanted witness and of contempt for Sherlock, certainly not of fear. Mary wants to stop Sherlock before he speaks with John, she is certainly not trying to defend herself from him.

If she wanted to get rid of him, she would have shot him when he revealed himself. But she didn't. If she hated Sherlock, why waste her breath in explaining her actions to him and asking him to understand what she did? If she was full of contempt, why not just shoot him? And she didn't. Because she didn't want to kill Sherlock.

Sacifical lamb? Sherlock took a step when Mary warned him not to. If you look at the scene in the office, Mary's gun is wobbling and when Sherlock took a step, she in reflex fired.

Sherlock has killed CAM in cold blood as well as interrogated the cabbie in ASiP. Sherlock isn't harmless.

@Susigo: Mary is a victim, though. CAM was dangling her past for goodness knows how long. No matter what her past was, she was actually trying to live a normal life. People can talk about how she should take responisble for her actions, but it is not that simple, especially for an intelligence agent. The people who are after her aren't going to give her a fair trial and if she was arrested, the people she is trying to escape from would just get her and take revenge on her. That would not be pretty. The spy world is an unforgivable place. Despite everything, I don't think Sherlock or John want to condemn her to such a fate.

CAM is the villian here. CAM is the one who actually blackmailed someone then in relialtion for Sherlock's interference, revealed the information Lady Smallwood hoped to cover up and her husband committed.suicide. CAM isn't picking on people for justice or anything. He is doing it because of power.

Last edited by LoveIsAViciousMotivator (June 4, 2014 2:41 pm)

**Posted by SusiGo** June 4, 2014 2:53 pm

Of course she is CAM's victim, I do not deny that. But she is no victim in the scenes with Sherlock we are talking about. She is the one who is armed, she is the one who tries to control the situation using violence if necessary.
As for the people who are chasing her not giving her a fair trial - how about the people she killed herself? Were they given a fair trial? I do not think so.

**Posted by LoveIsAViciousMotivator** June 4, 2014 3:04 pm

we have no context of her past, but what we can do is speculate. For me, if Mary was an intelligence agent for a government, she would have to follow the orders they give her. Yes, she will use violence to get what she wants, but she does what she needs to get the job done. There is no malice in such actions( Also, if she went freelance, the quote she says to John shows the type of people she would go after: People like Magnussen). She was given a task and she does it. It's cold. Yes. Ruthless? Yes. But in that world, she has to act like that. She has to be cold, ruthless, and even, distrusting.

And she wants to leave that world because she wants to change. She doesn't want anything to do with it no more. Now, that isn't easy. Coming back from such a world would be rough.

Mary will have to redeem herself for such actions and I hope S4 gives her that arc. If Sherlock can, so can she.

Last edited by LoveIsAViciousMotivator (June 4, 2014 3:06 pm)

**Posted by SusiGo** June 4, 2014 3:13 pm

She also says that John would stop loving her if he knew what she had done. So it must have been more than just tasks assigned by agencies. John was a soldier and knows about obeying orders. What she did, must have been outside the "normal" scope of the things agents do. Or she refers to her freelance career which cannot not be explained by government's orders.

**Posted by tonnaree** June 4, 2014 3:40 pm

Mary certainly fell back into "old habits" with amazing ease.

**Posted by besleybean** June 4, 2014 4:20 pm

She's very like both Sherlock and John in that way!

**Posted by maryagrawatson** June 4, 2014 4:30 pm

tonnaree wrote:
Mary certainly fell back into "old habits" with amazing ease.

There is a sharp contrast between Mary of the first two eps and Mary of the third ep, even just at the beginning. The sweet nurse is gone. Part of that could just be that Amanda Abbington didn't know Mary was bad in the first two eps and is playing her differently in HLV. But I much prefer the theory that Mary is working with Moriarty and snagging John was part of a big plan. Once they're married, she drops the sweet act.

If the Moriarty played by Andrew Scott is actually the real Moriarty and is alive in season 4, then I think we will learn that the gunshot on the roof did not come from the gun Moriarty was holding, but from a very skilled blonde sniper making a very precise shot to the back of his head...

Mary

**Posted by besleybean** June 4, 2014 4:39 pm

And he'd still be alive?!

**Posted by LoveIsAViciousMotivator** June 4, 2014 4:39 pm

besleybean wrote:
She's very like both Sherlock and John in that way!

LOL Yup! Totally agree with this statement!

**Posted by maryagrawatson** June 4, 2014 4:58 pm

besleybean wrote:
And he'd still be alive?!

If the shot was done right, you bet. We know Mary could take a shot like that.

I'm pretty sure there was no mention of anyone collecting Moriarty's body on the roof behind the first of Anderson's theories...

Mary

**Posted by besleybean** June 4, 2014 5:09 pm

Well there is, they take him away to use the mask...
But there has certainly been no official word of Moriarty dying.

**Posted by maryagrawatson** June 4, 2014 5:16 pm

besleybean wrote:
Well there is, they take him away to use the mask...
But there has certainly been no official word of Moriarty dying.

Yes. The only mention of Moriarty's body is in Anderson's first theory that a mask was put on it to make him look like Sherlock (btw, that mask was soooooo creepy). Otherwise, no mention of scraping Moriarty's brains off the roof of Bart's.

Mary

**Posted by besleybean** June 4, 2014 5:19 pm

Or even of him being dead!